Am I out of line here?

[jdock99]

Game is 25-50 stud live w/ a $5 ante. So it is a high ante game. I have been in the game for 10-15 minutes. There are two guys in the game who seem to be friends and slowplaying eachother and showing eachother cards when in pots heads-up. Then these two hands come up.

Guy #1 is the bring in w/ a 2. Three other people call the bring in including the other guy w/ an Ace up. Like I said this is a high ante game, and the players are for the most part passive so this is not uncommon. On 4th street Player #1 w/ the Ace up hits a 10 and bets. Player #2, who happens to be immediately to the left, who now has a board of 2 5 unsuited raises. Everyone else folds and so does Guy #1. WTF?

Next hand Guy #1 w/ a King up raises and there are 4 callers, including Guy #2. To make a long story short Guy #1 bets 4th street and everyone calls. On 5th street he catches another King, he bets and Guy #2 raises him with a board 3 5 7. Everyone else folds out of this very large pot, including a lady with an obvious straight draw, but obviously cannot call two cold and possible a 3 bet from the player who originally bet who probably has trip kings. The players then check the hand down and Guy #2's straight beats the other guys trip K's that do not improve.

At this point I call the floor over and comment the two players seem to be pushing other players out of the pot and checking it down, making the game real unfair for the rest of us. The two conspirators then tell the floorman that they always play their hands normal till it is heads up before checking it down. The floorman seems to buy this and basically tells me my fears are unfounded as the Guy #2 is a regular in this game. It should be noted both these players appear to be of middle eastern descent, probably Persian. Obviously, I do not agree with the floormans ruling and try to explain the implicit collusion between these two is subtly messing up the dynamics of the game and is not really fair for the rest of us. The floorman is not swayed by my obviously unpersuasive argument (that and the fact I think the 'regular,' player #2, is a generous tipper).

Anyways, after a little more grumbling I pack up my chips and leave the game. Am I out of line here in thinking htis is a subtle form of cheating and definitely puts the rest of us at a disadvantage or is this something common in live stud games that is perfectly acceptable?

[cgrohman]

No. I don't even think slow playing when heads up is proper. Hand #2 looks especially suspicious.

[beta1607]

[ QUOTE ]
It should be noted both these players appear to be of middle eastern descent, probably Persian.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this worth noting?

[Andy B]

That was going to be my first question.

Soft-playing is bad for games, and card rooms should not tolerate it. Some are more permissive than others. I think the complaint is valid. Where is this game?

That said, if these guys were strangers, the one guy would have bet his trips, and the other guy would have raised with his straight anyway, right? Do you have any evidence that these guys were actually working together? The hand with two player #1's was a little weird, but have you never bet with nothing and then folded to a raise?

I played in the $15/30/45 stud/8 game at the Trop in December '04. There were a couple of friends who would check it down when they were heads-up. After a bit, I spoke up, and they stopped doing it. I left when the game became shorthanded, and I think the Borgata is going to be the only place I play in AC from here out anyway.

[SweetLuckyMe]

I'd also be pissed. I don't think I'd leave the game, but I'd definitely attempt to exploit their tendencies. Think about what you can do to use it to your advantage. 3bet, check-raise, etc. where it most benefits you.

[jdock99]

At the risk of being politically incorrect, I have found in my live game experience that the chance of collusion between two players is increased substantially if the two players are of the same ethnic background. And I am not just talking about outright conscious cheating, I am also including more subtle forms of collusion that put the other players at a distinct advantage, that the perpetrators probably do not even consider cheating, such as raising to isolate and soft-playing heads up.

Anyways, in this game it became clear to me the floorman was aware of what these players were doing and it was permitted, so not much else to do. I know the floorman is not even a poker player so he probably has no clue how these players actions could affect the game. The game was not good enough to make up for this disadvantage so I packed it up and left.

[SittingBull]

There was no collusion in this case.
Players had legitimate hands to bet/raise.
Had one player had trash and played to influence the other player's hand,then there would have been collusion.
I do not like the soft-playing either;however,I would not leave the table for that reason.
Only if i suspected genuine collusion would i have left the table.
HappyPokering, [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
SittingBull

[BeerMoney]

I don't thikn they were colluding either, but, I'm totally fine with how you acted.

Did you ask these persian fellows if they hate our freedom? [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]