Being a nit at low-stakes PLO: a shame?

[AbZurrrd]

In short: I am a solid winner at $.50/$1 and $1/$2 LHE and recently moved to PLO25. While I played as a typical TAG (18/10/2.5) in LHE, I found my play in PLO very weak-tight.

Overall, I play Lyle Berman's style as discussed in SS2 and:

1) tend to automatically lay down made flushes and straight when the scare card comes (pair or flush card)

2) cheerfully lay down an underfull (88 on a JJ8 flop) when some1 bets the pot

3) avoid close calls, and overall trouble (i.e rare hero calls with top 2)

I do this except when I have a good idea that a player might be tricky, which I know by observing them and extensively trying to get some info on their knowledge using the chat (I play on Bodog so no PaHUD stats).

Of course I know this would be very exploitable for a good player, however so far I've been making an average of 2 buy-ins a day just playing cautiously, since people are totally suicidal at times and throw their stacks at me when really bahind. This is why I do not even consider using such things as the lone ace bluff etc...

[note: when the play gets shorthanded or HU I adjust a lot accordingly and do pretty well]

In conclusion: I know this is not going to make me a great player, but for now it helps me grind out, study the game before I can move up and start playing a real PLO game (I dunno where the play gets really interesting) and would like to know ur opinion guys...should I be ashamed of such a nitty play, or is it OK before moving up and getting real?

Any comment will be greatly appreciated!

[Bavid Denyamine]

As long as you're winning and not killing yourself from boredom, play whatever style suits you the best. I know I got into PLO because I was sick of being a 23/20 nit in NLHE, so you might be shunning some of the complexities that result from playing a lot of hands (which is what makes PLO so fun, in my opinion). Also, some of those situations you described as being nitty aren't as nitty as you might think. PLO generally discourages people from making heroic calls and very often requires pot control when hands become vulnerable. Laying down 88 on a JJ8 flop might be a leak (debatable), see this thread for reference.

However, I think to get maximum profit you'll have to open up your game a lot. Especially as you move up in limits it won't be as profitable to nut-peddle the whole time, as other players are going to be making better adjustments, smarter decisions and rarely calling off in bad spots.

[El helado Patata]

Do you think it is fun to play poker like you do? Or mentally challenging?

I would probably fall asleep playing your way but anyways, I think you should think about why you actually play poker? Someone once said that if he doesnt make $100 000 or more yearly by sitting infront of a computer all day (doin sportsbetting, poker, whatever)then it isnt really worth it and I think that is pretty true even thou my figure is probably around $50 000. So if you are only in it for the money then I suggest you should get a normal job instead if you only intend to play nitty lowstakes poker the rest of your life.

[AbZurrrd]

I do it primarily because :

1) I started playing 2 weeks ago with only $500 at Bodog (cuz it was the max deposit with my card) and need to build a roll and won't play PLO50 with less than $2,000. hence I build up slowly and I'm already half way there.

2) I am not an idiot and tried interesting moves already, but at PL025 it looks like a waste of time. Plus I still have to admit I'm new to PLO, so I play as an "observer" lol.

3) Don't get me wrong El helado. I want to improve and will. the Slotboom book is on my way. And as far as boredom is concerned, well, I see myself in the future as a shorthanded/HU PLO player. I played one month entirely at NLHE 100 HU and my winrate was crazy. Plus I had a ton of fun. In PLO it seems even more interesting.

For the moment, all I'm doing is taking my time to understand the game and I'm doing about 10 screenshots of cardplayer calculator to evaluate all situations. And remember them. I think a lot of people would be interested (e.g top set vs flush draw, then top set vs flush draw + backdoor draw then top set vs flush draw/backdoor+2 two pairs, or AA72 vs 9876ds etc).

I realized my intent was not clear in my post. I should have said: "grinding out and building a roll as a nit: a shame?".
Also I am interested in hearing from someone playing at PLO25 differently. Seriously, at PLO400 you'd get killed, but in micro-limits, outguessing yourself, although mentally challenging, seems fruitless (e.g you get raised with 88 on a JJ8 screams out loud he has that J, and therefore 9 outs to land his kicker, so vs 2 guys with a potential J, their ~18 outs together make u a dog period and u wont know if they land it or not since they will play it same way)

Thanks guys for your comments. I guess I wanted to know how you guys started. I'm not a pro, and I don't think I could be making $50 a day lol. It seems to bother u El to play "nitty lowstakes" but it won't be my life at all! How did you guys build a roll? My 1st 6 months of poker I went buston 124,440 times. I've been making money regularly for the last 6 now, but I've begun to play seriously only 1 month or so ago. I understand the concept of variance, esp. in PLO, so the cautious grind seem like a must do for me as a start. How did you guys do? Play as a smart LAG in micro right away? Stories welcome.

[southerndog]

I play stakes from as low as 25 PLO up to 400 PLO. Its a great game, and is tons of fun. IMO, PLO allows you more opportunities to stack lousy opponents. The opponent we all love in PLO is the guy who only raises AAxy and always sees the river with it. Busting a good hand like this is so easy. So, at small stakes, where you tend to have a lot of opportunities to bust people and outplay on the flop, play more hands...

At higherstakes, its going to take more of a hand, and more creativity to get someone's stack.

The thing you have to remember, is that you're gambling. you can get in there with the best hand, and sometimes you're still going to lose. So don't be afraid of sometimes having the worst of it, as long as your play is reasonable. Sometimes your read is wrong, and they have it, oh well. You lost $25.

[AbZurrrd]

Thanks for the post. I agree entirely and seriously don't chicken out about gambling. I'm just trying to not fall in traps where I'm a significant dog / drawing almost dead. Isn't there a giant leap from PLO25 to PLO400??? The day I'll play up there I'm sure I'll use as much deception as I can, for sure. Maybe I should just not play on Bodog seriously, it's too much of a donk fest. And really start playing. I guess I'll come back on Stars soon, since I need to maintain my Platinum level this month...

Thanks southerndog. I do see a lot of flops (>40%) and try to take every opportunity to stack'em. The only thing I was really worried about is that my post-flop aggression is not high at all. I know how to build pot and get value for my big draws, but was worried I laydown borderline winners too much

[SimonAllan]

I think passing 88 on an 8JJ board is pretty weak-tight, and that you should be repotting here. You may get an opponent with a J and weak kickers to lay down the hand, and getting it in against one player with a bare jack is good. Even getting it all in against two players with jacks can be good when their hands overlap, or they have a pair in their hands.

I think that a danger with the way you are playing is that you can beat the PLO 25 game by peddling the nuts and avoiding marginal situations. At higher levels, one of the keys to making money is playing marginal spots well, and the only way to get better at making the correct decisions is by playing marginal situations, and reviewing hands when you make a mistake. One of the reasons for practising proper bankroll management is so that you can be comfortable pushing any edge you can find - if you can get all in with a 51/49 edge, you should do so, as you can rebuy if you need to.

I would agree that the PLO25 game is not the place to be looking at making moves, playing too creatively and bluffing, but I think this is a separate issue from how you play marginal situations. Another thing that concerns me is laying down a hand to any scare card - this is very exploitable once an opponent picks up on it, and as you move up more people will pick up on it, if you continue to do this.

[AbZurrrd]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that a danger with the way you are playing is that you can beat the PLO 25 game by peddling the nuts and avoiding marginal situations. At higher levels, one of the keys to making money is playing marginal spots well, and the only way to get better at making the correct decisions is by playing marginal situations, and reviewing hands when you make a mistake. One of the reasons for practising proper bankroll management is so that you can be comfortable pushing any edge you can find - if you can get all in with a 51/49 edge, you should do so, as you can rebuy if you need to.


[/ QUOTE ]

To be honest with you, I can't wait to push small edges more and as I said start playing "real". But so far I am not playing (or at least didn't start) on a very large roll: $500 at PLO25 is just 20BIs. I read somewhere ~40 buyins is the norm/better.

So far I reached over $1K and I think my plan is to develop a better post flop play by playing more short-handed (which is what I like most, since it really gives me a better feel of the game) and on a larger roll (>50 buy-ins) so I can make more close calls and review mistakes without getting busto (read: leave some more space to the gamb00l in me).

I don't know, in any poker game I play, my attitude is sorta scared and careful at a full table (also Lyle Berman's advice in SS2 IS pretty weak tight), but my play is really aggressive and most likely more optimal at a 2-4 players table.

Thanks for all the advice. Really appreciated.

[Troll_Inc]

I think this is exactly the way to beat the PLO25 game.

[ QUOTE ]
In short: I am a solid winner at $.50/$1 and $1/$2 LHE and recently moved to PLO25. While I played as a typical TAG (18/10/2.5) in LHE, I found my play in PLO very weak-tight.

Overall, I play Lyle Berman's style as discussed in SS2 and:

1) tend to automatically lay down made flushes and straight when the scare card comes (pair or flush card)

2) cheerfully lay down an underfull (88 on a JJ8 flop) when some1 bets the pot

3) avoid close calls, and overall trouble (i.e rare hero calls with top 2)

I do this except when I have a good idea that a player might be tricky, which I know by observing them and extensively trying to get some info on their knowledge using the chat (I play on Bodog so no PaHUD stats).

Of course I know this would be very exploitable for a good player, however so far I've been making an average of 2 buy-ins a day just playing cautiously, since people are totally suicidal at times and throw their stacks at me when really bahind. This is why I do not even consider using such things as the lone ace bluff etc...

[note: when the play gets shorthanded or HU I adjust a lot accordingly and do pretty well]

In conclusion: I know this is not going to make me a great player, but for now it helps me grind out, study the game before I can move up and start playing a real PLO game (I dunno where the play gets really interesting) and would like to know ur opinion guys...should I be ashamed of such a nitty play, or is it OK before moving up and getting real?

Any comment will be greatly appreciated!

[/ QUOTE ]

[jipster]

ok; having read your post i think your doing fine;

just remember to value bet the hell out of it when your winning as you will likely get paid.

TAG is probably better for low limits anyhows; and especially more so for a beginner;

get hold of rolfs book; but only after you've gained some experience; its a complicated book full of intricate plays (or perhaps its not that intricate; but for a newb difficult to comprehend) I had well over 50k hands played when i read it and found it enlightening.

In the meantime get Stewart Reubens 'how good is your pot limit omaha'.... one word of caution is the games described he plays a very TAG'y game against opponents he knows EXTREMELY well so be wary of some of the more interesting moves he makes.

Anyhows; best of luck starting out; you already have a massive advantage; you're a 2+2'er!!!!