live 6/12, TT in MP1

mntndrew · #1 08-09-2007, 05:04 PM

Hero dealt T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] in MP1. EP limper is loose preflop and seems weak tight postflop. Hero raises, really bad BN calls, new player BB calls, EP calls.

Flop [7.5 SB]: Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
BB checks, EP bets, Hero calls, BN, BB fold.

Turn [4.75 BB]: K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
EP bets...

blackasthma · #2 08-09-2007, 05:05 PM

raise the flop.

Hyperrrprank · #3 08-09-2007, 05:25 PM

Edited: I'm talking about the flop here...
You've got 2 outs to a fh, 1.5 to the bdf, and 1.5 to the bds. Tons of those outs are likely tainted, since AJ, KQ, KJ, QJ, 910, J10, J9, Q10, etc. are likely hands here (discount the hands with a 10 since you hold 2 of them). Calling looking to improve is about your worst option. Villian is weak/tight, which means he likely isn't betting without at least a 9 here, and likely has a Queen.

call<raise<fold

Against someone who is loose aggressive and would donk the flop with overs, a fd or sd, or a naked 9 I think a raise is better.

gobbledygeek · #4 08-09-2007, 05:26 PM

I think most Queens would check/raise this flop, so I'd raise, charging flush draws and making it incorrect for gutshots to continue. If 3bet I think I'd have to continue as by that time I'd be getting 12.5:1 and I count about 4 or so outs (2 Tens, backdoor flush and backdoor straight). On turn we'd be at about 7.5:1 and I've got 6 pretty solid outs so I'd call again.

GovervaluingbackdoordrawsG

Hyperrrprank · #5 08-09-2007, 05:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think most Queens would check/raise this flop, so I'd raise, charging flush draws and making it incorrect for gutshots to continue.
GovervaluingbackdoordrawsG

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe this is a difference in our definitions. I don't see a weak/tight player ever donking a flop like this with a gutshot or flush draw. w/t in my mind means he'll bet an overpair here, a Queen, a set of nines, or MAYBE a monster draw. My standard w/t player checks his J10, and his flush draws hoping to hit his hand. Even if a w/t player checks planning on checkraising, when we bet out he suddenly fears a bigger made hand and just calls.

mntndrew · #6 08-09-2007, 05:41 PM

OK, maybe weak tight isn't the best description. He has bet/folded the flop several times in the 40 minutes that we've played. I think he's definitely betting a 9 here, as well as a flush draw or a straight draw, and maybe even a middle pair.

gobbledygeek · #7 08-09-2007, 05:50 PM

Even weak-tighties with Queens go for checkraises in this case, don't they? If 3bet I feel bad about my hand but it gives me good practice in going runner runner. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Xhad · #8 08-09-2007, 05:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
call<raise<fold

[/ QUOTE ]

If "looking to improve" is the only plan when you call then calling is indeed terrible, but I think "calling planning to reevaluate" is a complete different matter.

mntndrew · #9 08-09-2007, 05:59 PM

"calling to re-evaluate" is indeed what I was doing.

Hyperrrprank · #10 08-09-2007, 06:15 PM

I'd fold the turn here as played. Betting into this field twice, especially when the K comes, is showing strength and we could be drawing dead already or could make our straight at the same time villian makes a fh. Remember also there was a third player still in when villian donked the flop.

If the player is slightly more aggressive and will bet more hands on the flop then a raise on the flop/reevaluate on the turn seems ok.

I'm not sure what hand we're putting someone on if we're figuring they are weak/tight but would always go for a c/r with a Queen. I can't see much else they that particular player would be able to bet here other than a monster straight+flush draw or set of nines.