The View From Here

[Andrew Karpinski]

I look out my window and see a dozen trees, a road, cars passing by, hydro polls, wires and a beautiful cloudy sky. It's almost night time.

On an amazing day like this it is almost possible to forget the questions that keep pounding at the back at my head. In any variation they're all the same. Why? How?

Science has taught me that I am energy, fundamentally the same as everything else in the universe, simply combined in a different fashion. You could say the ancients foresaw this... we are all one.

But why? How? WHY? HOW?

First off. How did we get here? Working backwords... we evolved in Africa; rudimentary humans. Farther... we were animals, bits of life floating in the sea... bacteria... amino acids? My memory is a little fuzzy at this stage. We were bits of matter bombarded by cosmic rays?

Why? How?

Why? Why did we come into being. Is it the inevitable consquence of a universe that formed (arbitrarily?) the laws that rule it. Are we the universes attempt to explain itself? A sort of cosmic joke?

Through whatever mechanism I am here and I am aware. I can see the world around me and attempt to understand it. I can wonder. I can cry. I can feel great sorrow and ecstatic happiness. I am alive.

The theists position is dazzling. It brings comfort to the unanswerable question of existance; but it is unacceptable. It does not make sense.

We are in the middle of the very big and the very small. At one end, atoms, electrons, protos (and smaller!). At the other... nebula so distant and galaxies so vast. Perhaps the inevitable result of complexity is conciousness.

Why? How?

[vhawk01]

Anthropic principle. To me its that simple.

[Metric]

[ QUOTE ]
Anthropic principle. To me its that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an extremely efficient way to ignore a great many profound questions (rivaling "God did it" in its universal applicability), some of which may have very much more satisfying explanations.

[LadyWrestler]

[ QUOTE ]
I look out my window and see a dozen trees, a road, cars passing by, hydro polls, wires and a beautiful cloudy sky. It's almost night time.

On an amazing day like this it is almost possible to forget the questions that keep pounding at the back at my head. In any variation they're all the same. Why? How?

Science has taught me that I am energy, fundamentally the same as everything else in the universe, simply combined in a different fashion. You could say the ancients foresaw this... we are all one.

But why? How? WHY? HOW?

First off. How did we get here? Working backwords... we evolved in Africa; rudimentary humans. Farther... we were animals, bits of life floating in the sea... bacteria... amino acids? My memory is a little fuzzy at this stage. We were bits of matter bombarded by cosmic rays?

Why? How?

Why? Why did we come into being. Is it the inevitable consquence of a universe that formed (arbitrarily?) the laws that rule it. Are we the universes attempt to explain itself? A sort of cosmic joke?

Through whatever mechanism I am here and I am aware. I can see the world around me and attempt to understand it. I can wonder. I can cry. I can feel great sorrow and ecstatic happiness. I am alive.

The theists position is dazzling. It brings comfort to the unanswerable question of existance; but it is unacceptable. It does not make sense.

We are in the middle of the very big and the very small. At one end, atoms, electrons, protos (and smaller!). At the other... nebula so distant and galaxies so vast. Perhaps the inevitable result of complexity is conciousness.

Why? How?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think about such things when I am on my deck watching the moon shining on the water. It seems to form a golden path aimed straight at me. It is so beautiful I have to remember that I need to breathe.

"(and smaller!)" I have thought about that very thing until I better understood. There was an old, black and white movie I caught on TV one sleepless night..."The Incredible Shrinking Man". Near the end he said he was shrinking into nothingness, or something like that. I believe the answer is right there. We ARE energy. Everything is. It is God's mind, if you will. The smaller we see, the better we can understand. Einstein was right! Light is the constant, not time...as in "Let there be light..." E not only equals MC squared, E and M are the same imposters. And the free will is contained within the protection of the light. Free and limited at the same time. Most things are that way when really understood. Without God, there could be nobody to claim He does not exist. If He stopped existing, so would every thing...every one.

Sorry for the incomplete, rambling thoughts...my imperfect reach for answers that are just out of my grasp. Hoping to understand more tomorrow.

Have a great day! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[aeest400]

As Aristotle shows with his "four causes," the force of why questions can be interpreted in different ways. It asks sometimes for a mechanistic explanation ("why does water boil"), sometimes for an intentional one (based on a general understanding of rational action given certain beliefs, "why did Jimmy decide to join the army,"), and sometimes a teleological explanation ("for what broader purpose"). The question, "why are humans/the earth here" can either be approached teleologically or mechanistically.

Unfortunately, no one seems to have any good evidence to support their views on the teleological part--every religion comes up with its own evidenceless account to satiate our natural thirst for knowledge/hope, and some are clever enough to cover up the lack of evidence by proposing "faith" as a virtue. As for me, given that every geographically distinct group of people has its own contradictory answer for the teleological problem, it would take some very solid evidence for me to beleive that one is actually correct. However, if I did believe one was correct, I think it would be rational to devote my life to this "purpose."

So, this leaves us with the mechanistic part. Through the project of science generally, we can hope to come to terms with the reality in which we live in an orderly and organized manner that allows for successful prediction and explanation. That is pretty cool. However, other than by casting doubt due to lack of or false evidence, science doesn't seem to link up with the teleological part. In fact, given the natualistic account science offers for every aspect of human evolution, development, and being--it looks as though science beings to jostle the prospect for an overriding "purposeful" answers to the side.

In the end, the only why question that seems to bridegs the gap between the mechanistic and purposeful is: why is there something rather than nothing? One discredited answer (whether Christian or Aristotelian) is: because it is good. However, I do think there are three main candidates for a genuine answer the question of why there is something rather than nothing: 1) just because, 2) it had to be that way, and 3) that's the way it's always been (presupposes expansion/collapse of the universe--depending on one's understanding of time). Each of these is pretty empty at this point, and depending on the mechanics they may be the same answer. However, they are not completely empty and in some sense do answer the question. I'd be interested to hear any more enlightening answers that don't imply facts for which we either have no evidence or for which we possess contrary evidence.

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Anthropic principle. To me its that simple.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is an extremely efficient way to ignore a great many profound questions (rivaling "God did it" in its universal applicability), some of which may have very much more satisfying explanations.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think there is a more complete and satisfying answer to the ultimate 'Why?' question than the Anthropic Principle? Please share it with me, I've yet to encounter it.

[surftheiop]

I dont know much if anything about the anthropic principle at all so if you could help my understanding that would be appreciated.
Is it saying that there are nearly infinite universes and in this one the laws of physics just happened to be perfect for allowing life? Or is it saying that the laws of physics somehow "wanted" to be the way they are so life could be produced? Like i said i know very little about this principle and the tiny bit i do know just makes it seem like a tautology saying something to the effect that if the universe constants werent the way they are we wouldnt be here to observe them. (I know thats a flawed statement but i think you might understand what im saying). This principle to me doesn't seem to answer they why question tho, it seems more to talk about "IF" things were different we wouldnt be here.

Also completly unrelated, doesnt this principle assume that the only type of life that can exist is life that is similar to our own chemically?

[vhawk01]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont know much if anything about the anthropic principle at all so if you could help my understanding that would be appreciated.
Is it saying that there are nearly infinite universes and in this one the laws of physics just happened to be perfect for allowing life? Or is it saying that the laws of physics somehow "wanted" to be the way they are so life could be produced? Like i said i know very little about this principle and the tiny bit i do know just makes it seem like a tautology saying something to the effect that if the universe constants werent the way they are we wouldnt be here to observe them. (I know thats a flawed statement but i think you might understand what im saying). This principle to me doesn't seem to answer they why question tho, it seems more to talk about "IF" things were different we wouldnt be here.

Also completly unrelated, doesnt this principle assume that the only type of life that can exist is life that is similar to our own chemically?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, one interpretation (the one I'll be using as its mine) is sort of a weak interpretation. Let me give an analogy. Winning the lottery is, for the purposes of the analogy, 200 million to 1 against. Yet I won the lottery yesterday. Now, it seems almost impossible that this could happen to me...so there must be some sort of reason. Something this miraculous could really only be the work of some sort of God, right? So I can only surmise that God must have chosen me to win the lottery, and that the lottery win is good evidence of God's existence. Except we know this is silly. SOMEONE had to win the lottery, and if it wasn't me, whoever it was would be asking these same questions and perhaps surmising a different God, one who likes them. So, the anthropic principle says that, it is only because we 'won' this lottery that we are even able to ask these questions at all, and that no matter how rare it may be, there is absolutely no reason to use that as any sort of evidence for divine creation, etc.

Disclaimer: This is my own personal view of the AP, and is not by any means the only version. There are strong and weak versions, and even those have many variations. This is just how I see it.

[surftheiop]

Sorry if i double post - interenet is weird but i dont think my first one went through

Anyhow with the lottery example i understand, there HAS to be a winner for the lottery (or it would be against the law) but is there any reason there HAS to be a universe/mass/energy etc?

[Copernicus]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry if i double post - interenet is weird but i dont think my first one went through

Anyhow with the lottery example i understand, there HAS to be a winner for the lottery (or it would be against the law) but is there any reason there HAS to be a universe/mass/energy etc?

[/ QUOTE ]

you arent understanding the analogy in the way it was intended.

to put it more directly, the AP says that if there was no mass/energy/universe/5 finely tuned constants etc we wouldnt be here to ask why and how, no matter how improbable the combination of factors that gave rise to human life and intelligence. We are because they are.

It doesnt say that our form of chemical life is the only one possible. There may be other universes with different "natural laws" that give rise to a different form of life, and they would have their own AP.