Bet on 4th, 5th w/ nothing?

[BladeRnr]

Hi everyone. I'm a relative newcomer to stud, but am eager to improve. I'm still learning whether I should bet when others show weakness. No strong reads from villain on this hand, but I got the impression that he was relatively weak. Comments would be greatly appreciated.

7 Card Stud High ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.15 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 4: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (4.90 SB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (3.45 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (5.45 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks

River - (5.45 BB)

Seat 3: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds

Total pot: (5.45 BB - $5.45)

[7csCB]

Hi BladeRnr,

I think 3rd st is an excellent example of calling at lower stakes and raising at higher stakes. (BTW, I'm sure you'll get different opinions on this).

At higher stakes the raise gives you an opportunity of getting it Heads-Up and maybe even stealing the pot there and then. With this hand, Heads-Up you're in pretty good shape.

At .5/1, I think you were lucky to get it to 2 callers. Anyway, under these circustances, I think it's better to alllow for lots of callers and see where you stand on 4th.

[Bartholow]

I agree with the other responder that you might want to just limp in low limit stud with this hand, and raise or fold in higher limit. But the bets on 4th and 5th are good IMHO. I might even call the river but maybe I'm used to players who are more aggressive than the .5/1 players.

[cgrohman]

More additional agreeing with the above. Given a dead Q and J, I either limp or muck it. The rest of the hand looks good; you didn't exactly have nothing on 5th- at least so had a 4 flush and overs and it is correct to bet this out of position so that you can take a free card on 6th if you so choose.

I've been thinking about this hand, and I might actually pay off on 7th here because I have been reading too many of Andy's posts.

[Todd]

Here are some things to think about.

1. You are early to act with your raise, but your upcard is duplicated on the board. People will respect the 'strength' of the move, but will tend to discount that you have JJ, since the Jack is on the board. They may also intuit that you are not drawing to Jacks (per se). Most likely they will put you on high card strength, or a Broadway topped flush draw (no clubs on the brd). Altogether, this makes for a weakish ante steal, if that is what you are going for.

2. One of the things I try to track in the notes for players is whether they will limp, or call a full bet and then let go on 4th street. It is pretty easy to track this while you are playing, and add an 'lg' or some such abbrev. that notes their play. If either villian is known to fold in these circumstances, all the better.

3. It is also useful to keep track of the passive calling station. This is most critical, if you invision making this kind of play regularly. I dont think that it is hugely +EV to make these types of naked bets in to a calling station, sicne they will not let go of their hand, and thus you will have to show down something. This is especially true when your board doesnt show any (or much) high card strength.

4. In the current state of poker, a monkey (after watching enough WPT) knows that betting into weakness is a good idea, when you finally, on 6th, check after, it is pretty much a foregone conclusion that villian will be betting into you on the river.

5. On the river your decision will hopefully be informed by your read of villian. Ever see him show down A-hi? 'Value' bet river with a pr of 4s? (Those are the most obvious holdings that you can beat). Or is he a passive rock, who gets to the river, and then bets with his made hand.

If I am hero here, I (because I am still deeply suspicious of all poker players) would make a crying call of the river. The way the hand played, villian HAS to bet the river, even with air, and so you might as well call, and hope you catch him in a bluff.


Todd

[BladeRnr]

[ QUOTE ]
2. One of the things I try to track in the notes for players is whether they will limp, or call a full bet and then let go on 4th street. It is pretty easy to track this while you are playing, and add an 'lg' or some such abbrev. that notes their play. If either villian is known to fold in these circumstances, all the better.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you all for the thoughtful comments. I will try to focus on raising 3rd for value rather than for knocking people out. I suppose the moral is to escape low limit hell [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Unlike other calling stations at the table, I thought this one could let a hand go. Based on previous hands, I'd be very surprised if my sixes would have been good on 7th.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking about this hand, and I might actually pay off on 7th here because I have been reading too many of Andy's posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heaven help you if you ever actually watch me play.

[SweetLuckyMe]

At these very low limits there are more calling station than you can shake a stick at. I'd prefer to limp with your starting hand.

Considering that since he called so far he's very likely going to the end, come hell or high water, I think 5th is a check behind situation - just too likely that the ace hit him [I'd fear and somewhat expect a check-raise on 5th] (these fools love calling early raises with a hidden ace and two rags) or he's also on spade draw. He's very unlikely to fold to your 5th street bet and you're behind even just his ace high. Since you really can't bluff at those limits, I like taking free cards when I'm behind and keeping pots quite small without big early draws in pots that aren't multi-way. Keeping pots small early in these games makes later folds much easier, and their later chasing garbage much more incorrect.

[nowags]

may have been worth a crying call on the river, if you are feeling gutsy. aces are plenty live. definitely wouldnt raise to push him off his river, unless your board was a bit scarier (3 or 4 flush or straight possible), which usually at .5/1 doesnt help much anyways.