Worst kicker

Eriol · #1 05-13-2007, 08:00 AM

Do you think I played fine or I can fold\stop betting in these hands?

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is MP3 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
4 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.4SB, 2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4.2BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.2BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 8.2BB
BB shows Qd Jh 
Hero doesn't show Th Qs 

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $0.25/$0.5
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
3 folds, Hero raises, CO folds, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5.4SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3.7BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5.7BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Results:
Final pot: 7.7BB
Hero showed Td Js
Button showed Kh Jd

kerowo · #2 05-13-2007, 08:09 AM

Both of these are folds pre-flop.

BigBadBabar · #3 05-13-2007, 08:18 AM

nope, kerowo, try again...

OziBattler · #4 05-13-2007, 08:20 AM

Eriol, welcome to the forums and good stuff on getting the converter right

heres a couple o tips
1. dont post results even in white especially if u were unlucky 
2. if you had any reads/ideas on how you think the main opposition in hands you want to post then write then in there when you post as reads matter

Eriol · #5 05-13-2007, 08:25 AM

Hi, thanks for the welcome.

Sorry for results, I had no reads on these guys simply because I start playing limit hold'em only a few days ago

kerowo · #6 05-13-2007, 08:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
nope, kerowo, try again...

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh. I don't play either of these first in from those positions. OP raising with them shows the right mindset, but without a better read that a big chunk of the table is coming along I'm dumping JTo and don't think I'm ever playing QTo first in FR. What are your thoughts on these BBB?

Eriol · #7 05-13-2007, 08:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Both of these are folds pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why you think that?

I open in MP3 and MP2 whit decent hands, I think my chances to steal blinds are big enough.

kerowo · #8 05-13-2007, 08:38 AM

Mp2 and 3 are not spots to steal blinds from unless the table is really, really tight, in which case if you get called or raised you are done. You need to give some better reads on the tables for these hands you are posting.

I gave BBB my thoughts on these and I'll give you a little more.
Neither JTo or QTo have much high card power because the kicker is weak. You are basically hoping to hit a straight with these, which is rare so you want lots of people in the pot to make up for the times you aren't going to hit the staight. These aren't the best hands to try and isolate someone with because unless they are really loose you aren't going to get called by a worse hand pre-flop and these have pretty much zero showdown value against the range of hands you would expect to get called by when you raise them pf. If you think you can outplay your opponents post-flop, welcome to the club, everyone here does but it is usually just an excuse to make questionable plays.

BigBadBabar · #9 05-13-2007, 09:27 AM

kerowo i don't know what limit you play and i don't claim to be a tremendous or even much above average player, or else i'd be playing higher limits than i am, obviously, but at some point you have to be willing to play and raise hands other than 99+ and aq+ or whatever the range is that you, or many posters i'm sure, have as their solid opening range.

not because that range doesn't work, because it does, but because to me there does also exist a marginal +ev (as opposed to clear-cut like aa and kk omg raise) range which includes hands like jto, qto, t9s, 66, whatever, and the more hands you play with this range, with initiative, in pots with opponents where theoretically or practically we are better than them, the more comfortable you get, the more experienced you get, and these are slightly profitable situations and the more you do it the better you play in them until they become an increased addition to your arsenal.

your opponents, assuming they are good and take reads on you and whatever (which isn't always the case), won't be able to put you on just a monster hand when you open raise.

stealing the blinds, raising with marginal hands, not playing fit or fold postflop, are all things that are uncomfortable for me and i'm sure for everyone, but i try to work on them and i know i have to in order to get better at poker, which is ultimately my aim. i mean if your aim is just to have some fun and make a small profit with little variance then weakish fit-or-fold-tag gets it done, i don't disagree, although probably less these days than before. but i think most people gravitate to this forum because they want to improve their game seriously.

you're spot on when you say it is table and read-dependent as to whether or not we raise these hands, or any hand, for example 22 on the button, it's going to be uncomfortable postflop if both blinds don't fold but it's still +ev to raise there (and probably with any two on the button). these that were just posted are in ep/mp but i think i like to raise these some of the time so that an a9 or a 66 folds behind us and we have a chance if only the blinds or a few people come along, to cbet and take it down.

i don't really think your line of thinking is one i've had before in that spot, about how with a hand like jt or qt we are looking to catch a straight or else fold. when i'm first in with a decent hand, my thoughts are raise for value and possibly buy the button and/or take it down right now. also, maybe this is my chess background, i like to have the initiative. if we are raising jto then it's pretty likely a kto or a 66 is folding behind us, which is good for us, right? and if they're not, we should be able to exploit that later. so that's why i like to come in with a raise. if we raise jto, get two callers, and it comes kt2, i'm absolutely firing again. if it comes 234, i'm usually firing again as well. who's to say that villains always flop the nuts?

i do agree with you on the point that it's situational and that reads help (or else we'd raise any two from almost anywhere) but i disagree with you in that i get the feeling you recommend just folding it so as to avoid an uncomfortable situation which is only slightly +ev, since a better spot will come up soon. while this is true, i think we will get paid off more with our big hands if we're sometimes in there mixing it up with marginal hands too.

it just seems like there are a lot of posts lately where people are replying very authoritatively with what seems to me to be passive and not optimal advice, and i guess i am moving past that stage in my game and want others to do so as well [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

sorry for this to turn into a rambling rant; i hope when i reach my next milestone post, 3000 or whatever that is, i will incorporate some of this into some things i have been thinking about pokerwise for a while.

again, this is just my opinion and i'm not claiming to be the authority on this subject and i'm eager to hear what people have to say on the subject, if anything, about how i'm wrong and full of it, or whatever [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

cliff notes: save the micros.

BigBadBabar · #10 05-13-2007, 09:35 AM

kerowo i also agree with you that how the table is playing, and hero's image, are very key to making these plays work. however i'm not raising jt so lots of people come along, i'm raising it so they don't come along. if lots of people already come along then limping 33 or raising a jts after lots of limpers is right but first in a raise is usually either for value or to get people out. so you're absolutely right that if a lot of people are coldcalling raises we don't want to be raising this.

addendum to my above post, probably also what's happening is the games i am in lately don't match up aggression-wise or texture-wise to what i see in peoples' posts, so i don't really take that into account and i just post what i'd do in my game. so i apologize as i didn't mean to sound like my advice was better or more relevant, because probably the best advice someone playing xyz limit can get about their hand is from other posters who are beating xyz limit, since those of us at different levels will offer advice based on where we're at, which might not be the most applicable.

since that's all nice in theory but not very practical, i think the discussions/threads that arise from conflicting viewpoints/opinions about the same hand are what really help all of us out because we can see how things work on all the different levels, weigh all the info, and put it to use in our own games.