2/4 QQ out of position vs a bunch of limpers + raiser

[winky51]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, BB calls.


Raiser is decent everyone else is sharkbait. Now I know the standard play is to reraise because of equity. But I hate playing out of position vs a 4 callers and I know the BB will call if I do and probably fold if I raise. So I called for the set odds.

My image, very aggressive and winning.

OPTIONS:
Raise making the pot large vs 4 callers out of position

OR

Call with 5 callers for set value. Also mixes up your play if you hit.

I'd like to hear arguments for both.

[CybrPunk]

I reraise in this spot. It's very likely hero has the best hand right now. BB could very well fold facing 2 cold. UTG might even cap and force out the other cold callers making this the best possible situation for hero.

Plus calling is weak. You have the best hand for sure. Make everyone pay right now while they are surely behind.

ps: You don't logon AIM since you moved and you must've missed my email. I see how it is......

[winky51]

I will log it on. I have kept it off for a while.

[Ainex]

I would re-raise. You have odds for set and then there's the fact that you most likely have the best hand right now and are going to win this pot more than 1/5 times. So if you're going to win more than 1/5 times every bet that goes in now makes you money. If you hit your set you'll probably be good. If you don't hit your set you're still likely going to be good so raise this up.

[jwalk]

Personally, I would raise in this situation due the fact you currently have the best hand and you want to get as much into that pot when you have an advantage like that. But the con to that is after they come in 2bb they will want to chase you down to the river and you will still get paid off at this limit.

[W. Deranged]

This isn't even remotely close.

We three-bet.

1. We almost certainly have the best hand already.

2. The majority of hands our opponents could have have no more than one overcard against us. Often our opponents are sharing those outs.

3. Not only do we have the best hand right now (usually), but our set outs give us also a way to improve to win a massive pot.

4. Combining all of these things, the result is that we will win this hand way more than the 20% breakeven point. Failing to raise right now is costing us very, very, very much money.

Think about it this way. Let's say that with our QQ we win 25% of the time. (Which I think is a low estimate).

When we reraise and everyone calls, we get one quarter of the total 5 BB that go in, or 1.25 BB, for a clean profit of .25 SB. That's too much to consistently pass up in easy situations.


As far as the arguments about distorting the pot and not being able to protect your hand and so forth. Realize the pot is already huge. Your opponents are often poor players who will chase anyway. They don't think about pot size. Any small advantage they might gain later from getting profitable calls on their 2 out hands does not cost more than what we give up pre-flop.



As for the "I don't like playing OOP in a 5-way pot with QQ..."

The answer is that you need to practice your post-flop play and gain more confidence. You SHOULD feel comfortable playing that situation. It's a profitable situation. Yes, you'd rather be in position, have fewer opponents, etc... But you need to work very hard on not confusing situations that are challenging to play with situations that are unprofitable. Remember, winning players gain more edge the more complex the situation.

[kickabuck]

Winky,

I do not think you are thinking correctly in this game if your thought patterns include just calling with pocket QQ's for 'set odds' and concern about being out of position with pocket QQ's. Why ever raise anything in EP or MP other than AA's if your concern is position. It is imperative that you take full advantage of your equity advantage pre-flop. If you are concerned about overcards pocket Queen's are just as hard to play post-flop whether you raised them or not. Pick other spots to mix up your play, not raising QQ's in any position is definitely not one of them.

[terrapin314]

I reraise in this spot 95% of the time. If the raiser is a thinking player, I will mix my game up a little to change their read on me. It is probably a -EV move, but I will occasionally do something like this.

[Loser]

To start with, I haven't read any posts but the original so I'm uninfluenced by everyone. You must raise. There is no ifs ands or buts about this. This is 2 BB you're pissing away by not raising. (that's an hour of work for vetran 2/4er). PFR is an absolute no brainer and you could pin UTG on a stronger hand if he comes back over the top.

I'll be back in full time posting mode in a few days, just got off of partypoker million cruise.

raise for value, raise for info, raise because you have QQ. I think the OOP PFR are beautiful, it's the one place you can be certain that things won't so incredibly wrong.

[JacksonTens]

[ QUOTE ]
This isn't even remotely close.

[/ QUOTE ]

What Deranged said. For why Deranged said.

QQ... I want it capped. You want deception? Cap the Jacks and TT. Don't underplay at SSHE.

JT