A3 misplay of top pair?

[Grandma_DOG]

I thought I do A3 post flop play well. Maybe I don't. Whats your take?

Poker Stars
Limit Omaha Ring game
Limit: $0.50/$1
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) HERO is MP2 with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, HERO calls, 3 folds, SB calls, BB checks.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4SB, 4 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, HERO calls.

Here I've got top pair and 2nd nut draw, so I can take one more card.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3.5BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, HERO calls.

Top 2 pair. I can call this, maybe raise, but the low has arrived.

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (6.5BB, 3 players)
<font color="#cc0000">SB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, HERO calls.

Results:
Final pot: 9.5BB


Any mistakes here?

[Buzz]

Grandma - You didn't do anything to promote your hand.

SB bets the flop. Does he have 76XY (for the flopped straight)? Does he have a set? Does he have the nut low draw? Does he have more than one of these?

Is there any way you can get more information so as to get a better read on his hand?

And what about UTG+1? What is he chasing with?

I think you should make a move yourself, and immediately after the flop.

Raise!

Raise SB's 2nd round bet and see what happens.

That might do nothing for you except cost you a couple of extra small bets on the 2nd betting round. Or maybe the whole of the betting will go differently from then on. Maybe you'll get a better idea of things. Maybe that coupled with a bet on the next round (or the threat of another raise if SB bets) will get rid of UTG+1 with another 2nd nut low. Or maybe you'll get the free card option on the 3rd betting round.

At least if you do that much (raise on the 2nd betting round), you won't just be chasing with a bad high and 2nd nut low.

Make something happen!

Buzz

[Grandma_DOG]

My reasoning is to call down to river cheaply with 2 pair. 2 pair do very poorly in the low limits vs mid. Further, many opponents let their dogs and cats pick their starting hands, so crazy things happen by river. Its like playing against 8 blind hands sometimes.

This particular table was passive. Several players won't even bet top set, check check check. Didn't know much about the SB, so no read. I've been punished many times trying to bet out to exploit the table's checking weakness. What I discovered was it wasn't weakness, but meekness. They called me down. So that's my reasoning, and the cause of my mistake...

IF I raised on the flop, SB would have reraised, UTG+1 would have called. So now I have to place SB on a straight or set and UTG+1 on anything but likely a low.

So I've invested 2 SB to get this information, which tells me my high is likely no good, and my low may be good. So where does that put me from where I was? Do I fold on the reraise? or take a card and see?

SB had trips, UTG+1 had nut low.

[BlueBear]

[ QUOTE ]
Grandma - You didn't do anything to promote your hand.

......

That might do nothing for you except cost you a couple of extra small bets on the 2nd betting round. Or maybe the whole of the betting will go differently from then on. Maybe you'll get a better idea of things.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really get it, in a super-loose passive table (where players are not thinking beyond the first-level and are just playing their hands), this hand is extremely marginal at best, and at the very best, this seems to waste 1 small bet for dubious information. The risk of a 3-bet (or even a 4-bet!) on the flop does not make up for the benefit of a possible free turn card.

The only possible benefit I can see is if the players are "thinking" and are tight enough to better high hands. I don't think that's the case at these limits.

[Perryiv]

[ QUOTE ]
This particular table was passive.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are arguing that the strongest strategic response to a passive game is to play passively yourself. In a response above it was suggested that attempting to "promote" your hand with a raise might be a worthy alternative. You thought that tactic, which could cost two small bets, might not yield information nor advantage. Indeed, it might not. But what advantage do you hope to gain from passively investing one small and two large bets as a caller?

Imagine the play evolving so: your raise forces the SB to call (against the possible straight); then you get lucky on the turn when the ace kills UTG+1's nut low; your garbage low gets promoted, and your two pairs are now drawing live against SB's set. You will at least go away from the hand feelling like you made "something happen," even though the play would be hard to justify if you had known exactly what your opponents held.

[Buzz]

Grandma - I sense your frustration. [ QUOTE ]
IF I raised on the flop, SB would have reraised, UTG+1 would have called.

[/ QUOTE ]You don't know that. Perhaps it is true, but maybe not. When you raise you do make play more difficult for your opponents - and when play is more difficult for them, they're more likely to make mistakes.

You didn't give them the opportunity to make mistakes.

[ QUOTE ]
So I've invested 2 SB to get this information, which tells me my high is likely no good, and my low may be good. So where does that put me from where I was? Do I fold on the reraise? or take a card and see?

[/ QUOTE ]There's the proof of what I wrote above. If you get re-raised, play is more difficult for you.

It's a bit like boxing. SB hit you with a jab but you didn't jab back. You feared SB would counter your jab with another jab and you didn't jab back. You can't successfully box that way. Somehow you have to be the one to connect with the most jabs.

Buzz

[Buzz]

Hi BlueBear - I've been looking at your avatar for a couple of days, wondering if it's a cuttlefish.

[ QUOTE ]
this seems to waste 1 small bet for dubious information.

[/ QUOTE ]Perhaps. I think Hero may also gain some control over the hand. [ QUOTE ]
The risk of a 3-bet (or even a 4-bet!) on the flop does not make up for the benefit of a possible free turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]The possibility of taking the free card option is only part of the advantage of raising. But you're right about Hero risking a re-raise. And if Hero does get re-raised, then the free card option is all but gone.

The play is not without risk. But if you can't take risks like this, then you don't belong in the game with these opponents.

Buzz

[BlueBear]

[ QUOTE ]
Hi BlueBear - I've been looking at your avatar for a couple of days, wondering if it's a cuttlefish.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's my Maltese dog. He's looking at the kitchen, in anticipation of food, and is standing on his favourite mat.

[Buzz]

I see it. Thanks. I was focusing on the mat.

[quirkasaurus]

i concur. looked like a cuttlefish.