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  #1  
Old 01-22-2007, 11:05 AM
TheNoocH TheNoocH is offline
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Default Flop top set...faced with big river bet

1-2 NL Live...within the first 2 rotations of sitting down...

I'm dealt pocket Aces...

4 limpers to me in the cutoff...I raise to $10...button and both blinds fold...but all original limpers call..

Question 1...obviously my raise was too small...what was the correct amount? $16?

Flop comes A, 5, 6 rainbow...

Checked to me and i bet out $20 and everyone folds except the player two seats to my right...

now i'm aware that $20 is less than 1/2 the pot...but my thinking was that no aggression shown yet so i'd make it cheap enough for someone with 2nd best hand to join the party...which is what happened...the person who called has been very loose semi-aggressive...at least the 10-20 hands I've seen to this point...

Question 2...should I have bet more than $20...if so what is proper amount? 1/2 pot, pot, other?

turn comes a Jack of hearts...puts 2nd heart on board...checked to me...i fire out $50 which is approx 1/2 the pot...the other player calls...at this point i'm figuring a weak Ace, maybe a hand like 78 or possibly 2 pair...but weak ace or straight draw is what i'm guessing since i wasn't re-raised....

Question 3...is $50 correct amount? if not how much...

river comes a heart...i get checked to....i fire out what i think is a value bet of $30....i get re-raised all-in...for my remaining...$100 (approx)...other player has me covered..

Question 4...can i make this call?
Question 5...should i have just checked the river?
Question 6...if answer to #5 is no then how much should i have bet on the river?

Thanks for your insights...
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  #2  
Old 01-22-2007, 11:25 AM
deaders deaders is offline
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Default Re: Flop top set...faced with big river bet

What is the river card? Your bet sizing is gross, make them pay with their draws and worse hands, 2/3 pot at the minimum. You cant fold the river but it should have been a no brainer putting it all in if you had bet more on previous streets.
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  #3  
Old 01-22-2007, 11:29 AM
TheNoocH TheNoocH is offline
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Default Re: Flop top set...faced with big river bet

river was a heart...don't remember exactly which heart...but didn't complete any straight draws...

and obviously my bet sizing is gross (as you put it)...thus the reason i'm posting here...to learn a little bit...
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  #4  
Old 01-22-2007, 11:32 AM
deaders deaders is offline
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Default Re: Flop top set...faced with big river bet

I wasnt intending to be rude, just giving you some feedback.
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  #5  
Old 01-22-2007, 11:34 AM
TheNoocH TheNoocH is offline
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Default Re: Flop top set...faced with big river bet

no offense taken...things are always much clearer (to me at least) in hind site...and yes my bets weren't great...that's why i asked questions along to way to see what i should have been thinking and betting...thanks for your feedback....
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  #6  
Old 01-22-2007, 11:35 AM
Praetor Praetor is offline
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Default Re: Flop top set...faced with big river bet

bet more everywhere, LOL @ folding the river
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  #7  
Old 01-22-2007, 11:39 AM
Clayton Clayton is offline
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Default Re: Flop top set...faced with big river bet

Nooch, your entire thinking process is flawed.

Your edge in poker comes from making money in situations where other players wouldnt. Had you raised more pre and bet more in other spots, you wouldnt have given a backdoor random draw the odds to stack you and you would have made significantly more on the hand overall. It's NL, and playing your aces so weakly as to let other players catch you (like 78s) is simply not gonna work.
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  #8  
Old 01-22-2007, 01:18 PM
Cyclosarin Cyclosarin is offline
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Default Re: Flop top set...faced with big river bet

Some basics on bet sizing for you.

PRE-FLOP:
With limpers in the pot, bet say 3x BB +1 BB per limper, so in this hand you could have made it 3+4=7 BB's to go, or $14, then you have charged all these limpers at least something.

FLOP:
Then when the flop comes, and you are checked to: just fire out your normal continuation bet, which should be around 1/2 to Full Pot, depending on the frequency of your bets, your image, the other players that are involved in the pot, the flop texture and finally the strength of your holding. After all this standard play has happened you can begin to play some poker.

(obviously don't cont. bet every single time you raise PF, but alot of the time you should, whether you hit or miss, to allow you to capitalise on situations like this, but obviously when the situation is right it should be done)

This is the basics behind every hand where you have raised PF and you decide the situation is correct for a continuation bet.

At this point you would possibly have raised to $14 Pre-Flop, gotten, say 2 callers looking at the limp callers in this pot as played, (say we lost 2 of them)

So the pot at this stage would have been $45, as before say, it would have then been checked around to us, so we might decide to bet 2/3 of the pot, it has some draws and we should be betting this pot with the A (so we can represent it) or without the A (so we can build the pot and hopefully build up a nice pot to win and charge draws to beat us. We also want to build this pot so we can stack someone.

It's a semi coordinated board so we want to charge draws, so if we bet say $30 - $35, let's say $35. If we say the same person calls our bet the pot is now ($45 + $35 + $35 = $115)

If my maths is right the effective stacks in this hand are about $210. And at this stage you would have had ~$50 of that invested with only another $160 to go. The turn bet and it's sizing is another kettle of fish, but if we now move on to how it was played.

TURN:

The pot is about $83 big, and you have about $180 behind??

At this stage you want to be trying to get the rest of your 180 into the pot and called ASAP, so if you bet 65 - 70 into the pot it'll be enough to get called by a drawing hand and a weaker hand and also make a River push callable. {The slight problem with this size is the reverse implied odds we're offering but I won't get too hung up on these just yet)

As played your $50 bet is probably your best bet in the whole hand but still was too small, an extra draw has arrived, (but because it was a backdoor one, one you should be less worried about).

RIVER:
Then comes what could have been a master stroke if you meant it against the right opponent, I don't know what came into you but you betting $30 into a pot of $183 is quite mad, you have to call now, but depending on what you had been playing like it is either a bluff thinking you're playing with scared money and will fold to the possible flush or it's a value bet with a flush knowing you'll call with AK. Equally it could be another set, 2 pair, etc. etc. it could be anything really, but you have to call it.

Thought I'd make my first post longer than average.

[EDIT: To make it slightly more readable]
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