NL50 top pair gets reraised oop

[BadSeed]

A fairly typical situation there. Assume there is no observations yet on the villain.

Hero - 50$.
Villain - 50$.

Hero (SB) A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
CO calls 0.50
Hero bets 2.25
Villain (BB) calls, CO folds.

Flop (5.5$) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero bets 4$, Villain raises to 8$.
What is our line here?

Apply the same situation to two different flops:

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

My original thoughts were that in the first case scenario any Jack and some pocket pairs will reraise us flat just to see where they stand, but what conclusion can I drive? Reraise to 20$ and fold to further action? Or call, and check/call reasonable bet(s)? In the second case scenario I am inclined to defend my pair against draws, but in the third case I am worried enough about stronger hands and weak kicker to consider call, turn c/f.

What do you think? This is one of the most frequent and annoying and -$ situations I am facing with a decent hand...

[Profish2285]

I probably c/c down to river with the J93 flop. I 3 bet the A79hh board due to draws, and c/c the A73r board. Obviously this is dependent on bet sizing, but in general thats my line.

[Ranma4703]

I wouldn't bet on the A73 rainbow flop, because you can't get 3 streets of value usually, unless villain is retarded, so you might as well get some more value from bluffs. On this flop, I'm calling the minraise and c/c'ing down, and I wouldn't be surprised to see something like JT, QJ. I'm not scared of that minraise.

[Profish2285]

If youre going to c-bet dry flops when you miss or with mid pair, then you have to c-bet dry flops when you hit them with top pair as well. You definitely could get 3 streets of value as this is BvB and no one ever assumes the other person has anything.

[Ranma4703]

[ QUOTE ]
If youre going to c-bet dry flops when you miss or with mid pair, then you have to c-bet dry flops when you hit them with top pair as well. You definitely could get 3 streets of value as this is BvB and no one ever assumes the other person has anything.

[/ QUOTE ]
Its not BvB preflop - there was a limper, so you're range is narrowed. I don't always cbet HU, sometimes I'll check small pp, sometimes TPWK, sometimes TPTK, sometimes air. Also, most of my villains are not considering my play, just their cards, so even if I checked my TP here and cbet without it, they wouldn't figure it out.

[Profish2285]

The limper makes no difference, why do you assume villain even knows this? As a general rule, you should be c-betting dry flops 100% of the time against unknowns whether you hit them or not. Those are the flops you look to c-bet on. Why you would ever check air or anything on that flop is beyond me. The only way I check air on these flops is if I am convinced villain looks me up very light. Or, when I hit the flop, I have to be convinced that a flop check will lead to 2 streets of value for me.

[Ranma4703]

[ QUOTE ]
The limper makes no difference, why do you assume villain even knows this? As a general rule, you should be c-betting dry flops 100% of the time against unknowns whether you hit them or not. Those are the flops you look to c-bet on. Why you would ever check air or anything on that flop is beyond me. The only way I check air on these flops is if I am convinced villain looks me up very light. Or, when I hit the flop, I have to be convinced that a flop check will lead to 2 streets of value for me.

[/ QUOTE ]
WA/WB oop, I probably have the best hand but if I'm behind I have 0-3 outs to improve. It is a villain specific play, but it works often for me. Against thinking players, a bet is better, but I have lost way too much money assuming the villains at this limit are thinking to assume that. Also, you can't assume his range is wider because it is BvB, if you assume he doesn't know that a limper changes your range he wouldn't know that BvB changes your range.

[Profish2285]

This makes no sense. I understand its WA/WB, so that means you dont bet? You bet the flop, if he raises, you go into c/c mode, thats what happens in WA/WB situations. But to check here because its dry is missing out on value. You definitely can assume his range is wider because people in general do not like to fold their BB's to a SB raise, limper or not.

[Ranma4703]

[ QUOTE ]
This makes no sense. I understand its WA/WB, so that means you dont bet? You bet the flop, if he raises, you go into c/c mode, thats what happens in WA/WB situations. But to check here because its dry is missing out on value. You definitely can assume his range is wider because people in general do not like to fold their BB's to a SB raise, limper or not.

[/ QUOTE ]
c/c'ing aftr being raised on the flop seems like burning money, but folding to a raise on the flop is way too exploitable. As for the sb calling raises, my experience has been quite different - hopefully a third and fourth party will come into this thread, because I think we've reached the limits of debating our approaches based on personal experience.

[aka_bebel]

[ QUOTE ]
A fairly typical situation there. Assume there is no observations yet on the villain.

Hero - 50$.
Villain - 50$.

Hero (SB) A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
CO calls 0.50
Hero bets 2.25
Villain (BB) calls, CO folds.

Flop (5.5$) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero bets 4$, Villain raises to 8$.
What is our line here?

Apply the same situation to two different flops:

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

My original thoughts were that in the first case scenario any Jack and some pocket pairs will reraise us flat just to see where they stand, but what conclusion can I drive? Reraise to 20$ and fold to further action? Or call, and check/call reasonable bet(s)? In the second case scenario I am inclined to defend my pair against draws, but in the third case I am worried enough about stronger hands and weak kicker to consider call, turn c/f.

What do you think? This is one of the most frequent and annoying and -$ situations I am facing with a decent hand...

[/ QUOTE ]

Flop (5.5$) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
On this flop I would call his reraise and on any good TURN cards I would CR all in((no K,Q,T )) and lead if he checks.
He could have here some weak J or QT but I think most of the times his hand is weak

Flop (5.5$) A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
I would go with the hand here.Reraise him and get it in.Lots of bad turn cards for us.

FLOP (5.5$)A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Hmm...here if we call flop the pot will be 16+5=21 on the turn.If we c/c a safe turn for about 16$ the pot will be 21+32=53$ on the river.
will have behind on the river ~23 if I didn't get this wrong so I think we have to decide on the turn because I think its bad to call half of the stack and fold river.
Here there are no real draws so he either has a good hand or we have him dominated and he has a weak A (or sometimes trapping with a big one [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])
Also I hate AJ oop