Bet the river?

AragornX151 · #1 09-11-2007, 02:08 PM

I thought this was an interesting spot, given the preflop action and that I have a pair of sixes. Who bets the river?

PokerStars 15/30 Omaha/8 (9 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO caps, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (16.66 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds, MP2 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (9.33 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets, Hero calls.

River: (11.33 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

TheCount212 · #2 09-11-2007, 02:30 PM

Why aren't we betting if we have the nut low?

AragornX151 · #3 09-11-2007, 02:34 PM

Given the preflop action, you don't think AA2 is a legit option, or A2 with a better high than sixes?

bbartlog · #4 09-11-2007, 02:42 PM

Betting river seems bad. With two players in the hand on the turn, I doubt CO is betting just NLD/NFD, as he wouldn't have fold equity in a pot this big. So it looks like he has some kind of high on the turn, and since he capped preflop I'd expect he will often have the nut low draw here too. I think given the action you get quartered more often than you quarter your opponent on the river (even if it's actually a split much of the time).

HoyleGoneFishin · #5 09-11-2007, 03:54 PM

I don't consider myself to be an expert in omaha as I am in holdem, but I've won substantially at the game. My instinct would be to continue to on the turn and river in this spot. I figure A) I'm going to call anyway and B) he might give up dry aces on the turn (although, granted, probably not) C) he might actually have a dry nut low that you quarter on the river.

That said, in order to create the best equity lock you'd play it my way with the pot smaller. To create this, I probably just call the raise preflop. If it's just the two or three of us, I may create a more profitable bluffing opportunity (or semi-bluffing). If it's not just the 2 or 3 of us that's OKAY. I figure a hand like A236 plays well multiway. I don't really want to take it heads up against AA39 or AK25, but I don't mind having it 4 way against AA39, AJ46 and KQT9.

Also, btw with betting the river, you're usually not going to get raised and trapped unless he has PRECISELY AA2 or A2 with two pair (then you're just unlucky), so you're usually just getting called when quartered. In fact, many players will (incorrectly imo) just call with the AA2x here. And of course if you do get raised, it's limit, so how much do you lose?

deznuts

Buzz · #6 09-11-2007, 04:46 PM

Aragorn - I'd definitely bet the river.

Although it's doubtful that CO will fold, still there is that chance he will.

Balanced against that is the possibility of getting quartered.

But giving up half of this pot by not betting the river when CO would fold to a bet would be a big mistake.

Giving up an extra quarter of one bet (or two bets if raised) would only be a small mistake.

By all means, bet the river.

Buzz

BigBadBabar · #7 09-11-2007, 07:29 PM

count - the point is our high hand sucks, so we quite often only win low, and sometimes he has the same nut low, so we're quartering ourselves.

Rush17 · #8 09-11-2007, 11:43 PM

I'd like to address your preflop choice of the reraise. Given your position, and the fact that you were acting directly after the preflop raiser (who was in the cutoff seat)I would have preferred a call rather than a reraise. I think your type of hand would want a nice big volume pot, and by reraising, you are confronting the other players who limped in for a double bet, thus, you stand a good chance to fold them off and play this hand HU and OOP. Now, if you were OTB (after everyone limped in) or, if you had the BB (as you did here) but noone had raised the pot yet...then by all means, put in a raise for sure because everyone who limped in will almost surely call the one extra bet. Then, you have started to build a nice pot for your multi-nut-nut draw-with-protection hand, and you'd still have the volume that these type of hands usually prefer.

As to your question about the river: I would absolutely bet the river. Although there's a good possibility that your high hand isn't the nut...when I stop and think about how I would feel if I checked this at the river, I wouldn't feel nearly as good had I, at least attempted to get my opponent to fold. Even if it only has a slllllight chance to fold him off of his hand, it is WAY worth it. And, if you compare that with the possibility of getting quartered, then please don't allow that to prevent you from betting; the amount you lose if you do get quartered is a small mistake (like Buzz mentioned). Also, many opponents won't even raise your river bet with an AA2(which would be a mistake), and if he fits that description, then what would you be losing if you bet, or if you check and called? You wouldn't lose a thing.

Another thing, if you checked every river when you were HU in situations like this one (where you had the nut low but a weak high), you will start to become more readable, and you will find, that against decent competition, that they will be value betting you a lot more in these spots, along with bluffing you out of the pot when the low doesn't get there. So, sometimes I'll bet in this spot even with no high hand (which, isn't that much different than betting with a small pair if we think it's no good anyway)just to make myself less readable. Note, I'm not going to be just flingin' chips, it just helps me to control certain spots more.

AragornX151 · #9 09-12-2007, 03:35 PM

Guys,

Thanks for the responses.

Firstly, it seems people think that it was multi-way throughout. It was heads up from the turn on. It seems pretty clear that nobody was folding--nobody in these games folds AA or A7 lows in these big pots. My question centered around if I'm more likely to get 3/4 or 1/4 if more money goes in the pot on the river. If we're splitting, it doesn't matter if the river gets bet or not.

Rush; if the 3-bet had a chance to knock people out, I'd completely agree. The hand plays beautifully multiway. But I hadn't seen a single person fold to two cold back to them after putting in a call, so I was raising for value. As you see, it worked this way too.

As played, I tanked and checked. He also tanked and checked...with A2 and a pair of 4's. So I got 3/4 and could have gotten a bit extra on the river. As for being readable, the Stars mid-limit games don't require that much deception. In tougher games, I'd agree that's a big factor in decisions like these.

TheCount212 · #10 09-12-2007, 05:06 PM

Agreed... but if we're first to act I like betting here just in case villain doesn't have it. Plus, wouldn't villain raise the turn if he had the nut low?