Just a friendly reminder... ***NEW POSTERS MUST READ THIS***

Aaron W. · #1 03-18-2006, 04:27 AM

Don't be afraid to value bet the river. And don't fold decent hands on the river for one bet. These value bets and river calls are all from tonight's 90 minute 4-tabling for free money from Party.

~400 total hands with a 22 VPIP = 88 hands played
9 hands listed as river value bets/value calls = 10% of hands played won extra money on the river.

Yes, it's a sample size thing, but think about how much money you might not be winning if you miss out on these. And I don't know what people are complaining about when they talk about low VPIP tables. There was no table selection used here.

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Runner-runner paired board.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (9 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB calls, BB folds.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has As Ad (two pair, aces and queens).
SB has 7s 7c (two pair, queens and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 11 BB. 

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OOP WA/WB line.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ac Td (one pair, aces).
Button has Ks Kd (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.75 BB. 

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I thought I was toast when he check-raised my value bet, but I don't fold strong hands on the river heads up.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.50.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.25 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG+1 has Kc Kh (two pair, aces and kings).
Hero has Ah Jd (three of a kind, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.25 BB. 

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Kicker problem? No problem.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (3 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (3 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (3 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (5 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ac 6h (one pair, aces).
SB has Th 9h (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Hero wins 7 BB. 

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Villain is a known LAG, but this is the first time he capped me. I can't let him have a chance to check behind a worse hand once I get two pair.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, Hero raises, MP2 calls, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, MP2 raises, UTG+1 folds, Hero 3-bets, MP2 caps, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Hero calls.

River: (9.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 11.75 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Qc Kd (two pair, kings and queens).
MP2 has 3d 3s (one pair, threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 11.75 BB. 

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Straight board? Flush board? Value bet!

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (7 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, 1 fold, BB calls, CO calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB calls, CO folds.

Turn: (4.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

River: (6.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 8.25 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has 5s Qh (one pair, queens).
Hero has Kc 9d (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.25 BB. 

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Maybe that 7 really helped him and maybe he had a K the whole time, but a river donk HU doesn't scare me into folding.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero raises, 6 folds, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB folds, UTG calls.

River: (7 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below: 
UTG has 6c 6h (two pair, sevens and sixes).
Hero has Jc Jh (two pair, jacks and sevens).
Outcome: Hero wins 9 BB. 

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I still can't believe this river call (and all those other calls).

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
6 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero checks.

Flop: (2.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: (2.25 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

River: (4.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 6.25 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has 8d Jd (flush, jack high).
Button has Ac 3c (high card, ace).
Outcome: Hero wins 6.25 BB. 

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Double paired board with low paired cards. This is just absurd.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, SB calls, BB folds, UTG folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8 BB

Results in white below: 
Hero has Td Ac (two pair, aces and sevens).
SB has Kd 4d (two pair, sevens and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 8 BB. 

[i]Title edit by Greg

SoftcoreRevolt · #2 03-18-2006, 05:22 AM

That last value bet is Kickin' rad.

Rozez · #3 03-18-2006, 05:35 AM

Sorry, but I read just the two first hands.

Hand#1: Looks good.
Hand2#: Preflop and flop seem okay, but turn is very player dependant. Check-calling is a good line if you think your opponent will fire again with KK-TT. Also, if he has AK, you lose the least this way. If he checks behind with a decent but worse hand, you can value bet the river and he will probably call close to 100 percent of time.
Betting is also an option, but I think it's the worst one. You really don't need protection in this hand and the best you can hope for is that your opponent goes into call down mode with a worse hand. The bad part is that if he has you outkicked, he will raise and you'll pay a higher price to go to SD.
Check-raising is the third way to play this turn. It's a dangerous move that works only if you have a wild image. Your opponent's most likely holdings are AK and KK-TT. If he is a creative player there are a few other hands he could reraise on the button. If you c'r and he has a big PP, you gain nothing extra. So you need a loose opponent and a somewhat wild image for this to work. If you're check-raising AK, well you know that's not very nice.

In a nutshell, I think you played it fine. I just wanted to share my thoughts. Good value bet on the river, BTW. You have to call a bet anyway and your opponent will often call with worse hands and fail to raise with better ones. So betting is a freeroll for you.

Regards,
Rozez

borges · #4 03-18-2006, 11:45 AM

Aaron, in how many of these hands would you have called a raise to your value bet? I had been thinking that if you think you are ahead 50 percent of the time on the river, you should value bet....but that is not quite true is it? You have to worry about getting raised...so that means you should be ahead greater than 50 % of the time for this to be profitable.....but also by betting you fold a better hand once in a while....so that is indicating less than 50% of the time....do you have any basic guidelines that you follow? or is it all completely situational?

Gregatron · #5 03-18-2006, 12:49 PM

I kinda want to sticky this thread. Yes, this post is that good IMO. Great job Aaron.

Instead of having a messy unlocked sticky, I'm gonna alter the title. Every new poster should read this post.

Fantam · #6 03-18-2006, 01:03 PM

Some quick thoughts on value betting the river against 1 or 2 loose opponents.

First to act
Bet a decent hand on the river for value, otherwise your opponent(s) will check behind with weaker hands, but most likely will bet with a stronger hand.

Last to act
Bet the river when checked to if you think that there are enough weaker hands that your opponent(s) could call with.

But dont value bet if you think that you are only likely to be called by a better hand.

MrWookie · #7 03-18-2006, 01:31 PM

My only beef is with the second hand. You're getting 8:1, and given the preflop 3bet, you're very likely behind and looking at 3 outs. And you don't know which 3 are outs. I fold that flop.

Aaron W. · #8 03-18-2006, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Aaron, in how many of these hands would you have called a raise to your value bet?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's pretty situational and these are my responses if I have no read. Information, as always, tips the scale one way or the other. And sometimes, I think it's going to be close that the decision to look him up or fold really doesn't matter.

Runner-runner paired board: Bet-call
OOP WA/WB: Bet-fold
Kicker problem? No problem: Bet-meh
LAG: Bet-call
Straight board? Flush board? Value bet: Bet-meh
Flush: Bet-reraise
Double-paired board: Bet-fold

[ QUOTE ]
I had been thinking that if you think you are ahead 50 percent of the time on the river, you should value bet....but that is not quite true is it? You have to worry about getting raised...so that means you should be ahead greater than 50 % of the time for this to be profitable.....but also by betting you fold a better hand once in a while....so that is indicating less than 50% of the time....do you have any basic guidelines that you follow? or is it all completely situational?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think HPFAP suggests that you should be ahead about 55% of the time when you get called. This last provision is important because that's the situational aspect of it. I'm not value betting that last superdonk hand at Paradise 2/4 on the river because they aren't going to call to play the board and to split.

As some basic things to consider:

- Value bet more against loose passive players because they won't raise you and they won't bet worse hands for you.
- Value bet less against tight passive players because they won't call you with bad hands and won't bluff at you, so you can't win any more money out of them anyway.
- Call with medium-strength hands more often against aggressive players. Their betting range is wider so are ahead more often.

Aaron W. · #9 03-18-2006, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My only beef is with the second hand. You're getting 8:1, and given the preflop 3bet, you're very likely behind and looking at 3 outs. And you don't know which 3 are outs. I fold that flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Gutshot and BDFD make this a loose peel in a big pot.

MrWookie · #10 03-18-2006, 01:50 PM

Whoops. I read through these too quickly I guess. Yeah, this is a peel if you give your overs zero outs.