Open question to Stars about real-time adviser apps

[jukofyork]

Why do Stars allow the use of real-time ICM calculators in SNGs, yet are so against data-mining? There has already been a tool around for quite a while that does this and now an even more advanced tool has been created (see this thread) and I can only foresee them getting better and better in the future.

It's one thing to say that "they make the rules" and you have to follow them, but who is deciding upon these rules in the first place? I don't play at Stars, but I'd like to know once and for all their policy on things like this:

Q) If I create a poker tool which tells me information (with a high degree of accuracy) such as "The EV of pressing call is $2.31 and the EV of pressing raise is $4.28", am I allowed to use this on Stars so long as I press the buttons it tells me too?

If the answer is yes, then I'm just glad I don't play at Stars and if the answer if no, then why are real-time ICM calculators allowed?

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[heater]

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Why do Stars allow the use of real-time ICM calculators in SNGs, yet are so against data-mining? There has already been a tool around for quite a while that does this and now an even more advanced tool has been created (see this thread) and I can only foresee them getting better and better in the future.

It's one thing to say that "they make the rules" and you have to follow them, but who is deciding upon these rules in the first place? I don't play at Stars, but I'd like to know once and for all their policy on things like this:

Q) If I create a poker tool which tells me information (with a high degree of accuracy) such as "The EV of pressing call is $2.31 and the EV of pressing raise is $4.28", am I allowed to use this on Stars so long as I press the buttons it tells me too?

If the answer is yes, then I'm just glad I don't play at Stars and if the answer if no, then why are real-time ICM calculators allowed?

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I believe they are allowed because you still have to enter hand ranges.

[APerfect10]

100% agree that it should be BANNED.

Any program that makes decisions; whether automated or via user input should not be allowed...

[Hand_Crasher]

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100% agree that it should be BANNED.

Any program that makes decisions; whether automated or via user input should not be allowed...

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[Iq75]

These programs give their users an unfair advantage and thus should be banned. A bot that makes decitions and a program that tells you wich buttons to press real time are virtually the same thing.

[PartysOver]

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100% agree that it should be BANNED.

Any program that makes decisions; whether automated or via user input should not be allowed...

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so what about pokerstove or a pen & paper?
what about a reference table you made and put into excel that allows real time queries?

[jukofyork]

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100% agree that it should be BANNED.

Any program that makes decisions; whether automated or via user input should not be allowed...

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so what about pokerstove or a pen & paper?
what about a reference table you made and put into excel that allows real time queries?

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I think what he meant to say was: "Any program that makes decisions; whether automated or via user input should not be allowed while you're playing... ".

It seems amazing to me that there are so few people are outwardly against this type of application, yet so many people are against bots. The threatening part of a bot is not the fact that it presses the buttons for you, it is the fact that it makes automated decisions. If a player was using an "auto-folder" with some scripted rule-based system then this would be treated very seriously by the sites; yet if the player uses an application that takes away all of the required decision making, but still presses the buttons himself it seems that nobody cares...

I'm particularly disappointed with Stars, as they seem to actively endorse using this type of software. It's one thing to just ignore it until it becomes a threat (aka Party), but it's another thing completely to actually endorse it's use. Their Prohibited Software FAQ clearly lists "Sit and Go End Game Tools" in the list of allowed software, and then goes on to say "Any program that plays without human intervention (a "bot") or reduces the requirement of a human playing. For instance, an "auto-folder" is prohibited.". I think if they thought about their own rules more clearly, then "reduces the requirement of a human playing." could also include being told the EV of pressing each button...

I doubt my post will actually do any good, as I think the sites are only really worried about the players getting scared off. I'm quite sure they would be just as happy hosting a site full of automated bots, so long as they get their rake. I strongly believe that the rules they make are only intended to make the players feel the sites are safer and have absolutely nothing to do with what is actually ethically right or wrong.

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[ajml]

I maybe wrong because I dont really play SnGs so I dont follow the ICM stuff to much... However, I am pretty sure this new ICM tool provides hand ranges for you based on VPIP? I think this should be explicitly banned.

[jukofyork]

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do you prefer only the programmers to have the ability to use a program tool? because banning means that only some people can use it.that is more unfair and stubid i think

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The same argument could be applied to bots: if only a few smart bot makers can make bots then why shouldn't they be made available for everybody to use? OR: Just because there are some really good card mechanics in live games, does this mean that everybody should be able to blatantly cheat while dealing to even out the advantage the mechanics have?

A few players using stuff like this isn't gonna kill the games; everybody using stuff like this and I don't see much potential for profit (with a 10% fee anyway). Of course Stars doesn't see it like this - if it doesn't scare away the fish and thus cut into their bottom line, then they simply don't care. They might think differently if it makes it very hard for the multi-tabling pros to make any money though: 1 million fish all using SNGEGT < 1 million fish without SNGEGT + 1 million pros, AKA:

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A man and his wife had the good fortune to possess a goose which laid a golden egg every day. Lucky though they were, they soon began to think they were not getting rich fast enough, and, imagining the bird must be made of gold inside, they decided to kill it in order to secure the whole store of precious metal at once. But when they cut it open they found it was just like any other goose. Thus, they neither got rich all at once, as they had hoped, nor enjoyed any longer the daily addition to their wealth.

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It's not just SNGs that could be effected. If Stars says it's ok to to have something that tells you the EV of pressing each button for SNGs, then sometime in the future the same can/will be done for other games too. I wonder what Stars would say to somebody using one of the pseudo-optimal HU limit bots, but pressing the buttons themselves? If they don't like the idea of that, then perhaps they can explain what makes SNGEGT fine to use on their site?

Juk [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]