(GS) The River Overshove

QTip · #1 10-26-2007, 03:24 PM

I see this now and then, and it is a powerful move.
I had asked Matt Flynn about it in this post and he had some good thoughts to add. So, I just observed this hand today. I don't see it often, but I'm wondering how many of you use this and any thoughts you have on it.

Poker Stars, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BTN: $624.40
SB: $195.20
BB: $520.25
UTG: $244
UTG+1: $422.50
Hero (UTG+2): $308
MP1: $323.80
MP2: $375
CO: $318

Pre-Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (UTG+2)
5 folds, CO calls $4, BTN calls $4, SB calls $2, BB checks

Flop: ($16) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 Players)
SB checks, BB bets $8, CO calls $8, 2 folds

Turn: ($32) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $40, CO calls $40

River: ($112) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB bets $468.25 and is All-In, CO calls $266 and is All-In

Results: $644 Pot ($3 Rake)
BB showed J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (a pair of Threes) and LOST (-$318 NET)
CO showed 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (three of a kind, Threes) and WON $641 (+$323 NET)

I have only called one these all in river overshoves twice. One in the post I linked about, and one yesterday:

Poker Stars, $2/$4 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
LegoPoker Hand History Converter

BB: $1,295.65
UTG: $383.30
UTG+1: $674.65
Hero (MP1): $400
MP2: $412.80
CO: $400
BTN: $401.65
SB: $360

CO posts $4
Pre-Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (MP1)
2 folds, Hero raises to $18, MP2 folds, CO calls $14, BTN calls $18, 2 folds

Flop: ($60) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 Players)
Hero bets $40, CO folds, BTN calls $40

Turn: ($140) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($140) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $343.65 and is All-In, Hero calls $342 and is All-In

Results: $824 Pot ($3 Rake)
Hero mucked J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and LOST (-$400 NET)
BTN showed J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (a full house, Nines full of Jacks) and WON $821 (+$421 NET)

Johnes Benjamin · #2 10-26-2007, 03:32 PM

I use it routinely in situations like the 9's full.
Last one I remember was KJT9 where I had AQ and villain had some other Q.
If I played against more thinking opponents I think it would be extremely powerful in situations where we actually would be splitting it, b/c I could pick some of these pots up.
As is, people will usually just call and we lose some $ to the rake.

QTip · #3 10-26-2007, 03:35 PM

Have you ever done it with air or something very weak?

Johnes Benjamin · #4 10-26-2007, 03:51 PM

I don't think so, but I have called people's moves like this in situations like I fire every street with an overpair, draws miss and I check river, he fires huge bluff and I call.

It could be a powerful move against a better opponent but I am usually afraid to use it b/c a lot of times it comes down to if opponent likes his hand then he likes his hand, whether its a PSB or 3xPSB.

this mistake by opponents is exactly why shoving boards where a split looks likely is so profitable, b/c if they like their hand they will pay whatever you charge them.

I think it could be good against weak tight players occasionally, mixed in with really strong hands, but the obvious flaw is that it needs an extremely high success rate to be profitable.
If you bet 5x the pot you need to pick it up more than 5/6 for it to be +ev.
Overall I think PSB bluff is usually enough. Huge overbet may be the only way to get someone off a set or strong hand, but I figure there is no need to get someone off a set.
I'll pick my spots, take a hit when he has it, and pick it up (hopefully) enough to be +ev.