2/4NL: Jacks are good?

[setjes]

Villain seems pretty solid. 3bets a decent amount, but this is the first time I see him 4bet. I've 3bet (not too often imo) and called his pfr a couple of times before. The times I 3bet him pfr he folded. It's pretty early in the match, but he stacked off to me a couple hands before. In a reraised pot he shoved over my turn raise with a fd and he missed. Should I see this 4bet in this situation most of the time as strenght, cuz I shouldn't believe him after the bluff he made a couple of hands before and he knows that, or as weakness (tilt)?

FullTiltPoker Game #3861717542: Table Jobe (heads up) - $2/$4 - No Limit Hold'em - 10:02:03 ET - 2007/10/15
Seat 1: Hero($909)
Seat 2: erusugen ($396)
erusugen posts the small blind of $2
Hero posts the big blind of $4
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Hero [Jd Jc]
erusugen raises to $12
Hero raises to $36
erusugen has 15 seconds left to act
erusugen has requested TIME
erusugen raises to $108
Hero...

Oh and if u think this is an easy fold or easy call, please tell me what u think is borderline

[En Passant]

I think it's either push or fold, depending on two questions.

1. Do you think he is tilting after stacking off?
2. How many times have 3 bet him? Are you doing it enough where he is getting pissed and wants to take a stand?

You've only invested $36 so far. I think the biggest leak of players is they fall in love with pocket pairs preflop and feel they have to play them no matter what. Unless I know my opponent is tilting, I would probably muck this.

[jay_shark]

Call the raise . If he 3-bets a lot then I doubt his 4-bet range consists only of pocket q's and up .

How many hands have you played with this guy ?

If you've played 100 hands and he's never 4-bet , then I would be very concerned .

[jay_shark]

[ QUOTE ]
I think it's either push or fold, depending on two questions.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily .

For instance , you may call the raise and shove all-in on flops that do not contain a q,k, or A . This would actually be more effective if he has overcards to your jacks .

[Some9]

Get it in quickly. I can easily see him doing this with a lower pair. Also KK+ will just call sometimes while AK will be 4b a larger % of the time.

[Vinetou]

Get it in. I would the same with TT and AQ (but I am crazy). You said he shoved over your turn raise with a flush draw which makes it even more of a push here. Calling is the worst option because there is 52% that an overcard without you hitting a set will fall and you won't know where you stand. Make your decision easier and push.

[KakiTee]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's either push or fold, depending on two questions.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily .

For instance , you may call the raise and shove all-in on flops that do not contain a q,k, or A . This would actually be more effective if he has overcards to your jacks .

[/ QUOTE ]
you are missing the point: villains will realize that it was a coinflip at the start of the hand, and therefore will call your suspect push.

[setjes]

Well, in my previous post I actually meant push or fold. I don't think calling is an option. In case he 4bet me with something like a sc he can bluff me when an A or K flops or just give up when the flops comes rags. I don't want to give him this advantage. Besides, he may call a push lighter than usual, cuz I recently stacked him and he may be a little on tilt.

My experience is that solid players that have a wider 4bet range than AA/KK/AK tend to bluff the first, maybe first 2 times so that it starts to tilt u and then they wait for a solid hand. This, and the (small) chance of him being somewhat tilted made this a fairly easy push for me.

Afterwards I wasn't all so sure. Let's say that 30% of my solid opponents that have the 4bet in their arsenal only do it with AA/KK/QQ sometimes AK and the other 70% have let's say AA/KK/AK/QQ/JJ/sc's/small pp's/pure bluffs in their range, I'm in pretty bad shape, cuz they will fold the small pp's, bluffs (relatively large part of their range) and sc's to a push most of the time.

That being said, I know I will fold queens here about never. Just curious how u guys play JJ in this spot

[KakiTee]

if i've been 3betting enough its an easy push.

- dudes tend to get optimistic with 88-TT when it comes to 5bet shoves for some reason.

[jay_shark]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think it's either push or fold, depending on two questions.



[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily .

For instance , you may call the raise and shove all-in on flops that do not contain a q,k, or A . This would actually be more effective if he has overcards to your jacks .

[/ QUOTE ]
you are missing the point: villains will realize that it was a coinflip at the start of the hand, and therefore will call your suspect push.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's exactly my point . There isn't much of a difference between shoving or calling so it's not necessarily a shove or fold situation .