NL50 - Folding KK preflop against possible AA?

[TimovieMan]

Hi,

I'd like your input on a hand I encountered today.
I was playing my usual tight/aggressive game, though I must admit I'm new at NL after a long time of (micro-stakes) limit poker.
Was in luck with the table, a lot of semi-loose/passive limpers and only a couple of good players. A lot of easy folders also, a reasonable bet usually took down the pot.

And then this happened:

Villain 1 ($71.75) in EP3 - no real read yet, but appears to be a very solid player and likely the best player at the table

Villain 2 ($32.10) in BB - no real read yet, appears VERY tight

Hero ($58.40) in CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

2 folders, <font color="red">Villain 1 bets 4.5BB</font>, 2 folders,

<font color="blue">Hero raises to 8BB</font>, don't want to make the bet too big, a lot of these guys fold even at 3BB, let alone 8, and I want to build the pot - I've got kings for Pete's sake...

BB and SB fold, <font color="red">Villain 2 moves All-in with 64.2BB</font>

First sign of concern, Villain 2 has been playing very tight, no bluffing that I know of, so his most likely hands are QQ+ and AKs. I don't really fear Aces, but must take the possibility into consideration.

<font color="red">Villain 1 moves All-in with 143.5BB</font>

Now I'm panicking. Two of the (apparently) most solid players at the table both went all-in. Villain 2 could have AA, KK, QQ and AKs, but Villain 1 also going all-in likely means either AA or KK.

I already have KK, so I'm totally convinced I'm up against aces. And since Villain 1 has me covered, calling means I'm also all-in.

For now I've just posted 8BB, so I can still get out.

And then the donk side of me goes "with KK, go all-in preflop", so I closed my eyes and pressed the "All-in"-button.

<font color="blue">Hero calls 108.8BB and is all-in.</font>

Total pot is $146.65


Now, I've only been at the table for a good 20 minutes, I've no real reads on my opponents, safe for the fact that I'm up against the - for now - two tightest players on the table.

Is this a situation where it's OK to toss pocket kings in the muck preflop?
Since I'm only 20 minutes in, my reads could be WAY off, but still: two all-ins, and pretty big ones too, doesn't this mean at least one of them has aces?

I'd like to know your input on this, as well as on my decisions (and the reasoning, like I said, I'm new at NL)...

Thanks.

[TTStrangler]

didn't read but title says it all:



Oh ya BTW: Welcome to the forum!

[TS Clark]

I guess you can make an argument for folding here, but I'm not going to only 100 or so BB deep at 50NL. I'm just not capable of folding kings pre-flop at this limit for only 100BB in a cash game. I just go broke and say "meh."

One guy is relatively short and the other guy may very well be trying to isolate him by coming over the top of both of your raises. There is a good chance you will see AA here, of course, but it's also just as likely you'll see QQ vs. AK here.

[Movelong]

TL DR

[bozzer]

[DockDD]

Lose the "I want customers" ideas, they usually cause trouble--if they don't catch up you win 8BB; if they pass you, you can lose your stack.

Min raising (and check raising) have a place in NL, but coming from limit I think you should eliminate these from your repertoire for a while.

[choccypie]

In some situations in a tournament I'd fold KK.

In a cash game, instacall shove.

[TimovieMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Lose the "I want customers" ideas, they usually cause trouble--if they don't catch up you win 8BB; if they pass you, you can lose your stack.

[/ QUOTE ]
I know wanting customers is usually a bad idea, but I kinda let my emotions get the better of me in this hand (with the first bet, I mean). I've had aces before in that session, and even with a moderate 4BB bet they did nothing more than steal the blinds, which is a shame for a monster hand. So I didn't really want the other guy to fold.

And the fear of pushing all-in probably comes from my limit experience. In limit, when I have the second-best hand I can lose 12BB at the very most. I've been playing 0.50/1.00 limit with reasonable success, and don't think twice about re-raising a few times with KK. But there I stand to lose $12 max (and most likely a lot less).
This was suddenly a $50+ all-in move, and it kinda scared me - which is why I'm dropping to a more friendly NL10 game, at least until I get some more NL experience, and/or I get through my Ed Miller books on NL (PNLHE and NLHE:T&amp;P) that are coming in...

[members_only]

Raising to 8bb is really bad because you are giving them great implied odds. You are going to stack off on a lot of flops after 3-betting kk so dont make it correct for them to call with eg lower pocket pairs.

[PJo336]

hahaa my work was used!!! i love it!