JTs 6/12 LHE advice on the turn

threeducks · #1 10-19-2007, 11:53 AM

I like most I hate to get raised and check/raised I hate even more, I would venture to guess. Makes it hard to decide, huh? If the c/r saves you money by making you fold then it is great.

Live 6/12 LHE 10 players. I am EP2 with J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and raise frist in. 5 to the flop.

Flop: J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5 players, 9 sb)

Checked to me and I bet, 2 callers, SB check/raises, BB calls, I call.

Turn is T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (5 players 5.5 bb)

SB checks, BB checks, I bet my 2-pair, folded to SB who raises, BB folds.

Now what?

Was the bet bad? Is this a clear fold? If behind I have 4 outs - 9%.

Thanks

reutel · #2 10-19-2007, 12:06 PM

I think on the turn its an extremly easy bet, somewhat easy if SB is a moron and you didn't improve.

The checkraise is really weird. I think I call down against all morons, and most unknowns. This is live though, you should have some read on villan. Live I am limping this pf btw.

TheCount212 · #3 10-19-2007, 12:07 PM

ahhh, the dreaded double c/r...

Call the turn, c/c the river unless of course you boat up. Villain probably has 98s but you can't really fold TTP, especially without a read. You're hoping he has 76s here and not 77 or 66 obviously.

After the flop c/r I might have avoided betting into him on the turn, because that T fills out his OESD and the board is both straightened and double-suited. But I can't really fault you for betting your TTP.

As far as raising JTs PF it's a matter of taste. I like doing that from EP early in a session to guage the table's PF tightness (looks like a loose table you had), but limping is fine also. I've done both.

mntndrew · #4 10-19-2007, 12:09 PM

Without a read, there is no way I fold top two. You're behind to sets and 98 and crushing top pair and any other two pairs. The two street c/r makes me think this isn't a standard player by any means, so I'm showing down.

The turn bet is super easy.

I prefer to limp preflop; I can't think of a game situation where I would want to isolate with JTs from early position.

jesse8888 · #5 10-19-2007, 12:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I can't think of a game situation where I would want to isolate with JTs from early position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually played this hand yesterday. Admittedly it's not quite EP, but it's close. Reads:

BB is a donkey.
UTG is a mega donkey.
UTG+1 plays any two suited and is VERY passive after the flop.

UTG live straddles, UTG+1 calls, hero raisese J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] next in.

Would you make this raise?

As for the actual hand posted here...I call down 100% of the time against anybody I can't read like a book.

mntndrew · #6 10-19-2007, 12:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can't think of a game situation where I would want to isolate with JTs from early position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually played this hand yesterday. Admittedly it's not quite EP, but it's close. Reads:

BB is a donkey.
UTG is a mega donkey.
UTG+1 plays any two suited and is VERY passive after the flop.

UTG live straddles, UTG+1 calls, hero raisese J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] next in.

Would you make this raise?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd cry and throw it in the muck. Unless it was a really loose passive behind me, in which case I might cold call and try to build a big pot. The hand just doesn't have much showdown value unimproved. I feel like someone posted a 3-bet of a live straddle with this hand in the last couple of weeks too.

mikeca · #7 10-19-2007, 12:36 PM

I think the turn bet was fine. Check raise could have been a flush draw. Call it down. Most players that check raise the flop will lead the turn if they really have a hand. This could be someone trying to get cute with a flopped set or some strange play. Call him down and see what is has.

jesse8888 · #8 10-19-2007, 12:40 PM

It was pretty loose passive behind me. I play in Northern California and wasn't even excepting my Iso-raise to work. I'd have been happy to play a 4 way pot against BB, Straddler and Any Two suited with position, but instead the button and the SB cold called the 3 bets and I ended up in a monstrous 6 way pot.

Not to high jack the thread, but I think I have an equity edge in either of those situations, don't I? (in position against essentially 3 random hands, or 5th of 6 against 3 essentially random hands and 2 guys that couldn't resist the chance to play an eighteen small bet pot).

jesse8888 · #9 10-19-2007, 12:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the turn bet was fine. Check raise could have been a flush draw. Call it down. Most players that check raise the flop will lead the turn if they really have a hand. This could be someone trying to get cute with a flopped set or some strange play. Call him down and see what is has.

[/ QUOTE ]

I whole heartedly agree. You cannot possible fold this, and the turn bet was the correct play 100% of the time.

threeducks · #10 10-19-2007, 12:57 PM

Thanks guys - I hope this one reply answers everyone - I first put him on two pair when he check raised or flush draw (BTW, this was early in the session and this guy was waiting for 15/30 which he took shortly after - no reads since I do not play 15/30 and have not seen him before).

I would think that he would still bet 2pr on the turn. So, I bet my TTP. Long story short, I called. He bet the turn and I called.

He showed 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I think a ck/r with a OESD on a 2 flush flop with no cards of that suit is a bit donkeyshish? 8 clean outs is 7-1 and he put in 2 bets against 4 players. If he though he was going to get a free card then maybe it makes more since. Or he was trying to build the pot. Anyone with a FD is staying.

There are a lot of cards that would slow me down on the turn such as a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and an over card. But, a [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] would cost him money unless it was the J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or T [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Since I would most likely release my JT [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] UI on a 3 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] turn.

(one reason that I posted this hand is that I feel a little dumb getting ch/r twice [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]. I appreciate the responses that I played it correctly.