Boxed Cards: Are they Trashed at all Casinos?

[RJonTILT]

Hello

At a local Casino, I recently found myself in a Tournament on the button with pocket Aces. After the player in mid-positon went All-in pre-flop, I called. I was very confident when my opponent turn over Ac 2d. So, in this pre-flop All-In situation, the dealer burned the first card and two (2) "Boxed Cards" were dicovered in the deck (a 4h and 4c would have been the first and second card on the flop). Play was stopped and before any futher cards were dealt and before any further action was made for that round of betting the floorperson was called . He used the standard rule that both cards will be treated as a meaningless scrap of paper and put both cards into the Muck Pile.

Nobody questioned the situation, play continued and the flop came 5h 10s 4d with a Turn of 7c and a River of 3d. Wow, AA ran down by A2, what a joke!

Being confused by the results I questioned the floorperson because I thought the dealing error was not handled properly. My first impulse was that the cards could have been returned to the deck and reshuffled.

I would appreciate it if somebody comment on the ruling or tell me where to get the best answer. I know rules my vary from Casino-to-Casino, but I always found the rules to have fairness-based roots, but this one is Confusing!

My Concerns:

1. I did some research yet the rules do not differentiate between pre-flop and post handling of Box Cards.

2. Is the interpretation that all "Boxed Cards" should be Trashed an over-simplification?

3. What if half of the deck was discovered turned faceup and the deal continue without replacing the cards. Would not that too be wrong?

4. If the right move was to take two (2) Cards out of the deck then how did that change the odds?

4. What is the reasoning behind the rules?

5. Is this ruling contrary to most common player intuiton?



The following was copied from Robert's Rules of Poker from the appropriate section:

There are three statements in Robert's Rules of Poker which address "Boxed Cards".

This is all that is stated regarding situations concerning "Boxed Cards" dealt both pre/post flop. Based on these rules "Boxed Cards" at this Casino is always considered "Trash".

______________Start_______________________________

GLOSSARY

BOXED CARD: A card that appears faceup in the deck where all other cards are facedown.

SECTION 3 - GENERAL POKER RULES
MISDEALS
2. The following circumstances cause a misdeal, provided attention is called to the error before two players have acted on their hands.

(a) The first or second card of the hand has been exposed by a dealer error.

(b) Two or more cards have been exposed by the dealer.

(c) Two or more boxed cards (improperly faced cards) are found.

(d) Two or more extra cards have been dealt in the starting hands of a game.

(e) An incorrect number of cards has been dealt to a player, except the top card may be dealt if it goes to the player in proper sequence.

(f) Any card has been dealt out of the proper sequence (except an exposed card may be replaced by the burncard).

(g) The button was out of position.

(h) The first card was dealt to the wrong position.

(i) Cards have been dealt to an empty seat or a player not entitled to a hand.

(j) A player has been dealt out who is entitled to a hand. This player must be present at the table or have posted a blind or ante.

IRREGULARITIES

7. A card discovered faceup in the deck (boxed card) will be treated as a meaningless scrap of paper. A card being treated as a scrap of paper will be replaced by the next card below it in the deck, except when the next card has already been dealt facedown to another player and mixed in with other downcards. In that case, the card that was faceup in the deck will be replaced after all other cards are dealt for that round.

________________End_______________________________ ____

[r987r]

1,370,754 games 0.005 secs 274,150,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead: 4h 4c

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 93.448% 92.79% 00.66% 1271875 9064.00 { AhAs }
Hand 1: 06.552% 05.89% 00.66% 80751 9064.00 { Ac2d }


---

1,712,304 games 0.005 secs 342,460,800 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 92.633% 91.96% 00.68% 1574571 11590.00 { AhAs }
Hand 1: 07.367% 06.69% 00.68% 114553 11590.00 { Ac2d }

[nath]

boxcars are in dice dude

[THEOSU]

hey, we found PITTM's new name!

[RJonTILT]

I guess this is too complicated for this forum.

[JoeyJoJo Shabadu]

Why didnt you ask them to make both 4s the burn cards for the flop and river... I think each situation in smaller casino's is often different and they get the players to agree often. But that's small permanant charity ones.

Still changes nothing. The other guy should have been screaming that they took his straight away (or half of his 4s)... and yet YOU think you got the short end.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
My Concerns:

1. I did some research yet the rules do not differentiate between pre-flop and post handling of Box Cards.

2. Is the interpretation that all "Boxed Cards" should be Trashed an over-simplification?

3. What if half of the deck was discovered turned faceup and the deal continue without replacing the cards. Would not that too be wrong?

4. If the right move was to take two (2) Cards out of the deck then how did that change the odds?

4. What is the reasoning behind the rules?

5. Is this ruling contrary to most common player intuiton?


[/ QUOTE ]
1. Preflop, a boxed card is simply treated as an exposed card. If there are two boxed cards preflop, then it is a misdeal. Postflop, a boxed card in the stub is a meaningless scrap of paper. I would assume that two boxed cards would both be meaningless scraps of paper. This means they go into the muck pile never to return for that hand.

2. Not sure what you mean here.

3. If this happened preflop, it would be a misdeal. If it happened postflop, I am going to assume that at some point where the number of boxed cards is obviously very high, then the stub should likely be reshuffled. I don't know what the cutoff point would be.

4. The general reasoning behind rules like this and other rules like forgetting to burn or dealing a card before action is finished is this. Once everybody fairly gets their hold cards, all effort is made to play the hand out. It has to take an extreme circumstance to declare a misdeal. So things like dropping the deck, dealing early and boxed cards are errors that can be fixed and the hand can and should continue in the fairest way possible.

5. Not to me.

[RJonTILT]

I guess this way is to simplify the play, as far as the casino goes, but throwing away cards just seeem strange to me.
I get your drift, but to me, not replacing and not reshuffling the deck is inconsistent.

You see the inconsistencies when a dealer burns-n-turned, in error on the door of the flop, and then reshuffles the cards back into the deck.. but if the two cards are boxed cards they are trashed? Seem very inconsistent.

Oh yea, this is not about if I got a bad deal or not. Its about how the play is normally completed in this situation and if every casino will use they rule as a standard.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess this way is to simplify the play, as far as the casino goes, but throwing away cards just seeem strange to me.
I get your drift, but to me, not replacing and not reshuffling the deck is inconsistent.

You see the inconsistencies when a dealer burns-n-turned, in error on the door of the flop, and then reshuffles the cards back into the deck.. but if the two cards are boxed cards they are trashed? Seem very inconsistent.

Oh yea, this is not about if I got a bad deal or not. Its about how the play is normally completed in this situation and if every casino will use they rule as a standard.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, now that I think about this more, I don't see any reason those two boxed cards can't be used in the flop. It doesn't affect a single thing

[RJonTILT]

I recieved an email from Matt Savage (a well known and respected WSOP Tournament Director)

He stated the following:

"In all cases the card is treated as a scrap of paper and the next card is given except for when they are the first two off the deck. Yes it is a simplification and it may be an oversimplification but it is the same in all situations which makes it fair for everyone.
Matt Savage"

Guess that ends it. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]
Thanks