NL25: Lost value? Very basic newbie question.

ranka · #1 10-12-2007, 12:49 AM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Reads:
Villain is CO, NoRead about him/her (only 13 hands)

Stacks:
UTG ($8)
UTG+1 ($5.10)
MP1 ($16.35)
MP2 ($40.90)
CO ($15.10)
Hero ($28.20)
SB ($33.90)
BB ($14.35)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
4 folds, CO raises to $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, 2 folds.

Flop: ($1.85) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets $1.25, Hero calls $1.25.

Turn: ($4.35) T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets $2.5, Hero raises to $8, CO folds.

Final Pot: $9.35

Questions:
I classified this flop "dry" flop and because I called it. But looks like I lost value here.

Which one is better:
- as played (call flop/raise turn) or
- raise flop/raise-bet turn

keepitreal · #2 10-12-2007, 01:09 AM

the flop raise will a) build the pot b) seem less threatening than a turn rr. but his hand was probably weak enough that he was folding to either rr but more likely to call the flop one i would guess.

i know people like to reraise a lot but on such a safe board and his 60BB stack, something small will build the pot enough and maybe keep him in with AJ or worse.

another thought although i dont recommend it...i would assume you're 100% to win so with position calling the turn and letting him fire another river bet and maybe now call a rr because of pot size could be the best value but thats only knowing all we know now (and hand specific).

but in general, max value (especially against 100BB stack) needs that rr to build the pot...best on flop but you didnt play it terribly on turn(especially considering his stack).

Artsemis · #3 10-12-2007, 01:20 AM

Turn raise on a card like that looks suspicious. You're either slowplaying a set or bluffing almost every time there. NL25 I could be convinced a flop call and turn bet/raise line is best against most opponents but I'd drop that line for anything above nl25.

TheBad · #4 10-12-2007, 07:40 AM

I would just call and try to make him call a 1/2 pot raise on the river.

nation · #5 10-12-2007, 07:55 AM

i would just raise the flop. he's not continuing to bet the turn without ak, aq, maybe aj (usually that hand checks for pot control), and at. with ak aq he'll usually call the raise. on the turn i would check behind to disguise my hand and raise the value bet, or value bet if checked to. raising flop then betting turn is a really strong line and you get no value from one pair hands.

ActionStan · #6 10-12-2007, 08:52 AM

I don't think you lost any value. He didn't have anything. Given his stack size, you can raise the flop or the turn and get it all in. I think smooth calling on the flop is good because it gives him the chance to catch up if he has air. If you smooth call the flop, you're raising the turn 100% of the time, I think. Otherwise it's too hard to get his whole stack in.

RapidEvolution · #7 10-12-2007, 09:22 AM

Again I'm not a fan of the flat-call with PPs on the button, but that's prolly just a matter of preference. lol As played, I think raising the flop is better as it builds the pot {i]without[/i] forcing the opponent to make an immediate decision for all his chips. Say you raise to 3 on the flop...you know that if he calls flop and bets turn, stacks are going in. Even if he c/f's turn, you've still got more money in. It's been my experience that people will look up lots of bets on the flop, but fold to a turn raise.

ActionStan · #8 10-12-2007, 09:27 AM

[ QUOTE ]

Again I'm not a fan of the flat-call with PPs on the button, but that's prolly just a matter of preference.

[/ QUOTE ]

So how would you play it?

[ QUOTE ]

It's been my experience that people will look up lots of bets on the flop, but fold to a turn raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true and I would raise the flop a lot here too. But, there are still times when you may want the villain to catch up a little. I think this is one of those times when you can do that with little risk that he will make a better hand than you and little risk that you won't be able to get his whole stack in.

In any case, the villain never had a hand he could call with, so the question is moot.

Fiasco · #9 10-12-2007, 09:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I would just call and try to make him call a 1/2 pot raise on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]when you flop a set you need to try to get the whole stack. Otherwise theres no point in waking up in the morning.

RapidEvolution · #10 10-12-2007, 09:41 AM

I would reraise 55 on the button hoping to either take it down there, take it down with a cbet, or hit my set and stack the guy. I say it's a matter of preference because my game and Ranka's are different and if I'm calling solely to set-mine, then it's because villain has a full stack and I have a read that he'll stack off with top pair against my set.

I agree that there are situations where you can let the villain catch up and IMO, this would certainly be one of them if raising the turn wasn't going to force villain to make a decision for all his chips. In this case, it didn't matter as we happened to be against a villain who 2-barrelled with air, (which isn't common at 25NL) but let's say he has AQ/AK. Villain is more apt to put us on A worse ace if we raise the flop than if we call flop and raise turn (if villain isn't a drooler) and looking us up isn't as threatening because it's a raise for 3-4 dollars as opposed to 8-10 on the turn.