TPTK on coordinated flop, raise or call?

Aggromang · #1 10-03-2007, 04:54 PM

Villain is LAG, 35.5/13.5/1.5

PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, Button 3-bets, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, Button raises, BB folds, Hero ???

What is the best line to take in this situation against this villain?

BubbleMint · #2 10-03-2007, 05:37 PM

Villain is not laying down for one more bet an overpair or set which have us beat, 9x or the A or K of clubs.

I would call and re-evaluate on turn.

goebbelboy · #3 10-03-2007, 05:46 PM

Guy's not really a LAG. Flop bet I'm not crazy about unless you've got some other info, but since you did this is a really simple call. No value in anything else.

Tryptamean · #4 10-03-2007, 05:51 PM

I would c/r the flop here. This is the exact type flop that you should be worried about a preflop aggressor checking through, but in practice, people only do that rarely.

If your flop c/r is 3bet, I would just call down. At this point you should be worried that he is making a free card play with AK with 1 club. However, in practice, people do not take free cards when they should, so calling down saves you bets when behind.

I can find a fold if another club peels off and he's still betting.

rzk · #5 10-03-2007, 07:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would c/r the flop here. This is the exact type flop that you should be worried about a preflop aggressor checking through, but in practice, people only do that rarely.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't see the benefit of c/r. our hand is not that strong with 3 to a flush and 3 to a straight on the board and a possible overpair out there. i think the donk/call line is ok - if btn raises it might force the third player to relinquish his share of equity in what's now become a pretty large pot.

i don't think it's generally a good idea to put in a lot of bets on the flop when the turn card will drastically change your equity one way or another.

also btn's response provides some information about his hand. if he has an overpair, with or without a club he will almost always raise. if he has overcards with a club he will call or raise, if he has oc's without a club he's more likely to call than to raise. now that btn raises, we should call his bet and c/c the turn imo. as tryptamean said there's a danger of him taking a free card with oc's with a club, but in practice villain will usually keep betting the hand for you.

Tryptamean · #6 10-03-2007, 07:57 PM

a quick stove calc shows we have 45% equity vs the top 8% of hands HU

If we give the BB a loosish estimate of top 20% +any pp, then our equity 3ways is only 27%. That's pretty crazy and suprising to me.

So, we obv want to get it HU, so perhaps the donk bet is good. I usually do not donk into a pfr in the hopes of getting it HU, because usually the result is them calling when they have overs and raising when you are beat. However, in this case it should be a pretty good plan because he is v likely to raise overs with a club and shut out the BB.

I change my vote. no flop c/r

Tryptamean · #7 10-03-2007, 08:02 PM

If the turn bricks off and we are heads up vs the top 8% of hands, our equity only goes up to 55%, so barely an edge. Maybe a flop c/c is best; reevaluate the turn.

I thought our hand would have a lot more equity than it does apparently. Its crazy that we are a dog 3ways on the flop with TPTK vs 2 opponents.

Absolution · #8 10-03-2007, 08:27 PM

This guy isn't LAG. He's actually a nit in terms of short handed play. With his stats his 3-bets here probably mean stronger hands than you would play. You're best hope here is that he's on something like AQ with 1 club. I'm not sure why you bet out. I wouldn't. I would be playing this hand cautiously. There is no need to protect here and you are behind his range on the flop.

Aggromang · #9 10-03-2007, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This guy isn't LAG. He's actually a nit in terms of short handed play. With his stats his 3-bets here probably mean stronger hands than you would play. You're best hope here is that he's on something like AQ with 1 club. I'm not sure why you bet out. I wouldn't. I would be playing this hand cautiously. There is no need to protect here and you are behind his range on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolution, how would you have played it?

Is there any value to b/c the flop to get bb to fold his equity like tryptamean mentioned above?

Or is this strictly read based on villain's stats?
If so, would you have c/c flop and c/f turn if scary card falls?

inferno · #10 10-04-2007, 04:55 AM

I would have just c/c, prolly folded a club turn
this board sux, lets say you had AA this would be scary as hell and I woudnt be comfertable putting much bets in but now you have a even worse hand and thinking about c/r? :S