Too fast with set?

[H20]

Villain is lag, is the pot big enough here that I should protect against backdoor draws and raise the flop?

Poker Room skin
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
8 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (8 players) Hero is CO with 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, <font color="#cc0000">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (12.5SB, 6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, 4 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (8.25BB, 2 players)
MP2 checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">MP2 raises all-in $12.5</font>, Hero calls.

River: 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (10.75BB, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: 10.75BB)


Results:
Final pot: 10.75BB

[mattnxtc]

Anybody wanting to call you is getting 7.75-1. You should generally get more callers so I like it.

[kimchi]

It's a pretty dry flop and you'll get a lot of callers if you played it slower. It's also a big pot however and people will be calling a raise relatively lightly.

Since the LAG was shortstacked - i don't think isolating him on the flop was a good move. I'd have looked to raise on the turn here.

[Absolution]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a pretty dry flop and you'll get a lot of callers if you played it slower. It's also a big pot however and people will be calling a raise relatively lightly.

Since the LAG was shortstacked - i don't think isolating him on the flop was a good move. I'd have looked to raise on the turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want to win this pot on the flop.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
It's a pretty dry flop and you'll get a lot of callers if you played it slower. It's also a big pot however and people will be calling a raise relatively lightly.

Since the LAG was shortstacked - i don't think isolating him on the flop was a good move. I'd have looked to raise on the turn here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not raising the flop is terrible.

You say the flop is dry. Tak a look at it again and think about how many straight draws you want top charge as much possible.

Seriously! Not raising is [censored] up terrible

[kimchi]

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising the flop is terrible.

You say the flop is dry. Tak a look at it again and think about how many straight draws you want top charge as much possible.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, point taken. Here's my ([censored] up) reasoning. I am probably playing these spots incorrectly, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I just think the pot is so big on the flop that a raise on the flop isn't going to go far to protect our hand much. Anyone with a gutshot on the flop will still be getting correct odds to call whether we call or raise.

Anyone with a pair will happily overcall, but will probably fold to a raise (unless it's a big Jack). Don't we want pairs to call (and play incorrectly) as they're almost drawing dead?

A raise on the turn will give people still drawing less favourable odds.

If the LAG had a decent stack btw, I'd be raising this on the flop.

Go easy on me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

As a side note, is anyone 3-betting this pre-flop? The LAG is shortstacked and raising should buy the button, clear the blinds and possibly UTG too giving us position and dead money 3-way....or are we over cold-calling to encourage multi-way action and try to flop a set?

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not raising the flop is terrible.

You say the flop is dry. Tak a look at it again and think about how many straight draws you want top charge as much possible.


[/ QUOTE ]

OK, point taken. Here's my ([censored] up) reasoning. I am probably playing these spots incorrectly, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

I just think the pot is so big on the flop that a raise on the flop isn't going to go far to protect our hand much. Anyone with a gutshot on the flop will still be getting correct odds to call whether we call or raise.

Anyone with a pair will happily overcall, but will probably fold to a raise (unless it's a big Jack). Don't we want pairs to call (and play incorrectly) as they're almost drawing dead?

A raise on the turn will give people still drawing less favourable odds.

If the LAG had a decent stack btw, I'd be raising this on the flop.

Go easy on me [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

As a side note, is anyone 3-betting this pre-flop? The LAG is shortstacked and raising should buy the button, clear the blinds and possibly UTG too giving us position and dead money 3-way....or are we over cold-calling to encourage multi-way action and try to flop a set?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are misapplying the concept of waiting.

Read the SSSH book again and see what hands and flops they advocate doing it with.

Here is a few good things that wont happen if you just call the flop

- 43s, 63s, 96s, T8s, T9s with a heart or club folds

- 43o, 63o, 96o, T8o, T9o folds

- 43s, 63s, 96s, T8s, T9s with a heart or club incorrectly calls two bets

- 43o, 63o, 96o, T8o, T9o incorrectly calls two bets

- Jx, 7x, 5x, 99, 88, 66 incorrectly calls two bets

- You get callers behind you and MP1 check raises AA, KK, QQ

- You get a caller behind you with Jx, 5x and 7x. He catches a two pair or trips out on the turn and raises you so you can 3-bet.


Seriously. The pot is 14.5 bets if you call. Its big so you want people to fold, not to call. If they call 1 they will often call 2 anyways.

In the examples they use in SSSH for the wait for turn Hero's hand is much more marginal and the pot is bigger. This hand is so so different.

[JacksonTens]

[ QUOTE ]
Not raising the flop is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who spawns these crazy statements?

'Terrible' is not for this spot. It would hardly be terrible to call here...

JT

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Not raising the flop is terrible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who spawns these crazy statements?

'Terrible' is not for this spot. It would hardly be terrible to call here...

JT

[/ QUOTE ]


actually, it is terrible. You don't want a hand like AQs hanging around for 1sb and turning a 1000 outer against you.

the pot is big, start getting ppl the (+**** out, and Jx is not going to fold anyway.

[Absolution]

Pots don't get much bigger than this. Raise this for value and for protection against gutshots. With the MP almost all-in you could 3-bet this pre-flop.