JJ Facing Re-Re-Raise

Chicos75 · #1 09-12-2007, 11:56 AM

4.40/180
Average Chip Stack
No Reads

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (8 handed) internettexasholdem.com

UTG (t5525)
UTG+1 (t925)
MP1 (t7995)
Hero (t4250)
CO (t5425)
Button (t11510)
SB (t3473)
BB (t7075)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises to t300, Hero raises to t800, 2 folds, SB raises to t3473, 1 fold, MP1 folds, Hero ???

Dave D · #2 09-12-2007, 12:20 PM

Easy push. It's early, villian could have a lot of hands, and you're committed.

sapsuckah · #3 09-12-2007, 12:43 PM

You'd have 34 BBs left if you fold, so you're clearly not committed. That said, I still think I push this unless SB has been very tight.

Dave D · #4 09-12-2007, 01:01 PM

You're committed because of how much is in the pot, and because you've put in~ 20% of your stack.

A good rule for low buy in donkaments and new players is never fold TT+, AK PF.

sapsuckah · #5 09-12-2007, 01:17 PM

Wow Dave, I've always had a lot of respect for your posts but I don't agree here at all.

If you put in 20% of your stack when you're starting with 20-25 BBs, then I agree that you're committed. But going from 42 BBs to 34 is a hit from which you can absolutely recover.

As for your TT+, AK rule, I mostly agree but I never let myself subscribe to something like that completely. I've folded TT and JJ to significant action pf and not regretted it.

Regardless, I do agree with you that this is a call.

Dave D · #6 09-12-2007, 01:44 PM

OK the 20% of your stack part isn't nearly as important as the fact that you have JJ, this is a low buy in donkament, and there's a ton of dead money. It's actually 18%, which I guess if you had a weaker hand you could fold, but 20% or more is about where I draw the line that I'm getting it all in, at some point in the hand, or folding. That's a good rule of thumb for new players and works like 95% of the time.

We're not trying to "recover from a hit", we're not trying to survive, we're trying to take every +EV situation and exploit it. Your comment sounds a lot like something someone who's just trying to survive would say.

My point about the fact that we've put in so much of our stack is that it's -EV to fold for accumulation reasons. Namely, we should never be putting that much in without a plan to get the rest of it in, if given the chance. Anything else is spew.

PantsOnFire · #7 09-12-2007, 02:04 PM

Hero should not be re-raising and then not know what to do when somebody goes all-in for most or all of his stack.

Let's try another scenario. SB calls t800 and MP1 calls. Pot is t2450, hero has 3450 behind, flop comes As Qh 7s. Now what is your plan?

Instead of looking for an answer to a tough situation, look for the reason you are in the tough situation. I would say the reason here is your preflop play. You bet an awkward amount of your stack. If you had called MP1 and SB moved in, it would be a lot easier to lay your hand down. If you re-raised more preflop like 1300, it would be a lot easier to call SB's all-in.

Plan ahead to avoid tough decisions.

sapsuckah · #8 09-12-2007, 02:13 PM

No, I'm not a "trying to survive" kinda guy and I'll jump all over any EV+ situation. And I really do agree with almost everything you're saying here.

I'm just saying that 20% isn't committed when you're 30 BBs+ deep, IMO. If I had done this same raise with AQ and a push behind me came from a tight player who had me outchipped, I wouldn't feel obligated to call it simply because I'm in for 800 of my 4200 chips there.

And I don't know what stack percentage is the right percentage to say, "ok I'm committed here," but I don't think it's 20% unless you're short to begin with (in which case you should usually be open-pushing anyway). I'd like to hear other viewpoints on this, but I think drawing a specific line at 20% being committed is dangerous. The 80% left if you do find a fold is still a reasonably substantial stack.

monix · #9 09-12-2007, 02:43 PM

Contrary opinion I know, but I say Fold.

You are either crushed by an overpair or racing against AK.

stevematador · #10 09-12-2007, 06:54 PM

monix, I believe you are failing to realize we're talking about a complete donkament here. People push "all in" with all kinds of rag hands in these at this stage, JJ is huge +EV in this situation with the quality or should I say lack of quality of players pushing rags in these. You have to take your chances with JJ here everytime, these SNG's are about accumulation at this stage, not survival,and you must take this +cEV opportunity every time in these

If this were a higher stakes tourney, then folding may become a consideration, but in these donkaments, no way, no how, am I folding JJ here. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]