limping in south florida

[whood]

The Game is $1-$2 no limit with $100 max buyin. This is the typical game down here. It seems that 75% of the time 7- 8 people limp with no raises pre-flop. Is profitable for me to limp with rest when I have trash?

[jay_shark]

No it's not correct as you will be compounding your mistakes by calling with trash .

Certainly low pocket pairs and connectors begin to increase in value which would be worth seeing the flop . Hands like j-7 should be forbidden , no matter how many players are involved .

[Albert Moulton]

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The Game is $1-$2 no limit with $100 max buyin. This is the typical game down here. It seems that 75% of the time 7- 8 people limp with no raises pre-flop. Is profitable for me to limp with rest when I have trash?

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In general, the answer is no. The reason has to do with reverse implied odds. Lets say you overlimp in MP with 58o and flop 4s6s8c. You have top pair and a gutshot in mid position in a multi-way pot. This is a very weak hand, but you might be tempted to bet or call several streets with this hand. You will rarerly improve. And even if you improve, you will frequently lose to some other limped hand, like a higher straight. Your position is bad. Your hand is likely to flop a good but not great hand. You will lose money more often than you win here.

On the other hand, on the BUTTON and maybe the CUTOFF (one off the button), you can over limp with speculative hands that you might fold in EP (i.e. 78o, K7s, etc.). But the key here is NOT to play for TPWK or chase straights without good implied odds. But DON'T do this in MP, EP or even the blinds. Bad position + weak cards usually = a lot of reverse implied odds.

[pzhon]

Getting 7:1 odds is great when you have to beat one person. Getting 7:1 odds when you have to beat 7 people is not great. It's no discount at all. You need a larger discount to play trash in a multiway pot than you need to play it heads up.

These games are always a gold mine, at least before the rake. Most of the players are clueless, and over 90% of the players lose on average. They are losing even more money than they do on average when they play Q6o (since their opponents might have trash, but might have decent hands, too). You shouldn't immitate them if you want to win. You need to do something different, such as being selective, and raising preflop with good hands (you don't have to wait for AK or QQ), and evaluating your hand properly postflop.

In theory, if the stacks were very deep, and your opponents were bad enough, you could play garbage and hope to get paid off enough by your terrible opponents when you hit. The problem is that the the stacks are shallow which limits the amount you can win, and trash doesn't hit very often, which limits the frequency of your payoffs. Disconnected offsuit hands flop two pair or better (not counting a pair on the board) about 3.5% of the time, and they are not guaranteed to win when they do. So, ignore the times when you fold K5 and the flop has 2 5s and you would have won a huge pot. Trash hands are a bad gamble.

A much closer decision is whether to fold trash in the small blind, where you get a 50% discount. It's still usually right to fold even with that discount.

[jay_shark]

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A much closer decision is whether to fold trash in the small blind, where you get a 50% discount. It's still usually right to fold even with that discount.

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Certainly all 0 and 1 off-suit connectors will show a profit but I believe the decision to play 2 gap off-suit connectors is a close one . Again , this is assuming that all players at a full table have limped into the pot and you have something like 18:1 pot odds .

I don't believe any off-suit hands like 8-4 , 7-2 , 6-2 will show a profit .

[Rek]

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Getting 7:1 odds is great when you have to beat one person. Getting 7:1 odds when you have to beat 7 people is not great. It's no discount at all. You need a larger discount to play trash in a multiway pot than you need to play it heads up.

These games are always a gold mine, at least before the rake. Most of the players are clueless, and over 90% of the players lose on average. They are losing even more money than they do on average when they play Q6o (since their opponents might have trash, but might have decent hands, too). You shouldn't immitate them if you want to win. You need to do something different, such as being selective, and raising preflop with good hands (you don't have to wait for AK or QQ), and evaluating your hand properly postflop.

In theory, if the stacks were very deep, and your opponents were bad enough, you could play garbage and hope to get paid off enough by your terrible opponents when you hit. The problem is that the the stacks are shallow which limits the amount you can win, and trash doesn't hit very often, which limits the frequency of your payoffs. Disconnected offsuit hands flop two pair or better (not counting a pair on the board) about 3.5% of the time, and they are not guaranteed to win when they do. So, ignore the times when you fold K5 and the flop has 2 5s and you would have won a huge pot. Trash hands are a bad gamble.

A much closer decision is whether to fold trash in the small blind, where you get a 50% discount. It's still usually right to fold even with that discount.

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Pzhon, a lot of your posts are related to odds and your explanations are normally spot on but I can’t understand the fold with trash from the SB. Now assuming all are bad players with lets say regularly 7 limpers as the OP has said, surely if you were one of the said limpers then you would hit as much as all the others therefore long term all would even out. But if you concentrated on playing the SB mainly then the odds long term must fall in your favour.

Does it make sense what I am trying to say?

I am assuming of course that all players are of a similar standard so won’t go into how good your post flop play is.

[pzhon]

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They are losing even more money than they do on average when they play Q6o (since their opponents might have trash, but might have decent hands, too).

In theory, if the stacks were very deep, and your opponents were bad enough, you could play garbage and hope to get paid off enough by your terrible opponents when you hit. The problem is that the the stacks are shallow which limits the amount you can win, and trash doesn't hit very often, which limits the frequency of your payoffs. Disconnected offsuit hands flop two pair or better (not counting a pair on the board) about 3.5% of the time, and they are not guaranteed to win when they do.

A much closer decision is whether to fold trash in the small blind, where you get a 50% discount. It's still usually right to fold even with that discount.

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Now assuming all are bad players with lets say regularly 7 limpers as the OP has said, surely if you were one of the said limpers then you would hit as much as all the others therefore long term all would even out. But if you concentrated on playing the SB mainly then the odds long term must fall in your favour.

Does it make sense what I am trying to say?

I am assuming of course that all players are of a similar standard so won’t go into how good your post flop play is.

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Well, I was assuming that you do have a skill advantage. With very deep stacks, that might be enough to get your completion back, but I don't think it is with the typical short effective stacks.

First, when you are considering playing a garbage hand, you know that your hand is bad, but you don't know that the limpers have bad hands, too. Most of them probably do, but they usually don't raise with decent or good hands. So, you are starting out with a hand that is worse than theirs, on average.

Second, you are out of position, which is extremely important in NL.

I think these are worth more than the 50% discount.

[Rek]

Ok i see where you are coming from. I was assuming from the OP's post that it was such a poor game that everybody limps regardless of holding. In which case you end up effectively without blinds thereby all games starting with equal if you see what I am trying to say. Long term I just see all the limpers equalling out over time.

But thanks for the reply

[pzhon]

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Ok i see where you are coming from. I was assuming from the OP's post that it was such a poor game that everybody limps regardless of holding. In which case you end up effectively without blinds thereby all games starting with equal if you see what I am trying to say.

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That the players break even before the rake on average in no way means that you will break even in this particular situation. You break even on average when you average over the good positions and bad positions. When you are in good position, you will tend to win money on average. When you are in bad position, you will tend to lose money on average. When you have AA or AJ, you will tend to win money on average. When you have 72 or Q6o, you will tend to lose money on average. You expect to lose money when you play garbage in the small blind. It is possible that you will lose more than the cost of the small blind.

[Mook]

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It is certain that you will lose more than the cost of the small blind unless you've got so much post-flop skill that you're wasting your time playing $1-$2.

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FYP.

It doesn't matter how loose and/or bad the table plays, it's incredibly difficult to be a consistent winner out of the SB in NL. Nothing gives me more joy then sitting down at a NL table and finding a couple of limit converts to your immediate left who defend their blinds (and/or limp in to short-handed pots) with trash. It's generally a very lucrative spot to be in. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Mook