Dealing with calling stations here (razz)

[ceegee]

I had no read on either seats except I knew seat 6 was loose.

Razz ($0.25/$0.50), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (5.00 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (4.00 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (7.00 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

River - (9.00 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] xx___bets $0.30 (all-in)

Total pot: (10.20 BB - $5.10)

[adanthar]

[ QUOTE ]
Dealing with calling stations here

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step 1: fold third

[ceegee]

and why is that? because Sklansky says fold anything higher than an 8?

I play decent 9's because I can handle and get away from situations if need be. But If I catch a small and they hit anything over an 8 I'm liking my position. Just like 4th.

Now explain why you say fold 3rd instead of acting like it's obvious.

I feel that they would call even if I had a 7 showing instead of a 9. So when I pair and he bets should I fold there? That's more of my question.

[betgo]

Speaking of calling stations. OP is one, as are most at these stakes.

Fold 3rd because the 7 completed with a 5 and 7 to act and probably has a better hand. You pretty much have a 2-card hand. The 9 is not a total brick, but close. If the 7 had limped, it would be OK to limp behind.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
and why is that? because Sklansky says fold anything higher than an 8?

I play decent 9's because I can handle and get away from situations if need be. But If I catch a small and they hit anything over an 8 I'm liking my position. Just like 4th.

Now explain why you say fold 3rd instead of acting like it's obvious.

I feel that they would call even if I had a 7 showing instead of a 9. So when I pair and he bets should I fold there? That's more of my question.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's try to get some perspective here. I understand that those who are seeking advice typically want the entire explanation of the logic and math and metagame issues behind the advice given. Sometimes that isn't even enough! But those giving the advice don't always have the time or inclination to post their intricate thought process on a public forum. Now for some advice:

You don't have to take everything Sklansky says about razz as gospel (and in the long run you'll be better off if you don't), but playing 3-card 9's is a tricky business. If you want to see how much you can win with them, go ahead but take a more realistic view of them. A 976 is not a decent 9, it is a bad 9. It's the third worst 9 there is. A 963 or 954 might be a decent 9, and a 94-4- a smooth 9. Your saving grace in this hand is that the 9 is buried, but it's a very poor holding to get involved with when you will rarely have any fold equity and will have to make a winner at showdown vs. two opponents.

[jbrennen]

[ QUOTE ]

I play decent 9's because I can handle and get away from situations if need be.


[/ QUOTE ]

But this isn't a decent 9, it's a pretty rough 9.


Once you've decided to play it on 3rd street, bet 4th and fold fifth. On 5th, you quite likely went from the best hand to the worst, and you're probably going to need to hit runner-runner wheel cards to have the best hand at showdown.

[RustyBrooks]

976 is not a decent 9, it's one of the worst ones, the only worse ones are 987 and 986. On the plus side your cards are live, on the negative side 9 high doesn't win too many 3-way pots and your chances of getting both opponents to fold by 5th is not great unless you catch perfectly.

The reason 976 is bad is that if you make your hand, it's just not that likely to be good, and your redraws are awful. 952 in comparison gives you the option to improve to anything from a wheel to a 8 - with 976 your best improvement is to a 76 and perhaps more likely to an 876. You're likely to lose all hands where your opponent has the same hand as you (i.e. other 9s, 8s and 7s)

You know you are going to get action with most hands, and the fish will pay you off, so waiting for a better hand is probably indicated. Not that I've never called in a situation like this, just that I think I'm wrong to do so.

On 5th both your opponents are probably drawing better than you. You have a lot of outs to a 9 (I count 17 but I would not be thrilled to draw a 98 so let's call that 14) and if you make your 9 you're showdown bound.

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
Speaking of calling stations. OP is one, as are most at these stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Weak sauce.

[jbrennen]

[ QUOTE ]
...but playing 3-card 9's is a tricky business. If you want to see how much you can win with them, go ahead but take a more realistic view of them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given your position in this hand, and given that Seat 6 is loose, there's a good argument for raising with your 9 instead of just calling. Raising is much more likely to get you heads up with Seat 2, and if you're going to play three-card 9s, you should really want to play them heads up.

IMHO, on 3rd street here, folding > raising > calling.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
and why is that? because Sklansky says fold anything higher than an 8?

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And because Hellmuth says fold anything higher than a 7 unless you are stealing. This isn't about how well <u>you</u> play. See, most of the good players are playing better hole cards than you, because they read Sklansky and Hellmuth and any poker forum or even the simple advice Harman gives on FT. So, you are not against another 9 or higher, you are very likely against a better hand to start. In this case, two of them.

I play nines, too. I play them hidden when I have a couple wheel cards, showing when I am the lowest card on the board and have at least one wheel card to go with it, or hidden when against a real LAGGY player I know plays Jacks in the hole.

I also think there is no "right" way to play, and if your stats show this works for you, then play your game, your way. I'm barely ahead adding 8s to my third street play, per SoP.

Then there are the notes. Anytime I find a player who has come in voluntarily with 9 or better, I note it. I'm not unique! That means good players, and there are good players at all levels, or just serious players, are much more likely to raise you, call you down and so forth.

But, now don't get mad, OK? If you are good at getting away, why would you call here?

[ QUOTE ]
5th Street - (4.00 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 7 K 8___calls
Hero: 6 9 7 3 3___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5 J 6___bets[/i]

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a four-card nine against a probable 87 and 65. Without the nine, you only have a three card hand, and the chance of catching and overtaking two opponents is kinda slim.

I took some time when I was arguing with the forum on a couple occaisions to run some hands thru the simulator. Once I was dead right - and the other time it changed my thinking. I say: never believe anything just because someone says it. But, also maybe rethink and do further research if a lot of people you respect are diagreeing. (I'm stubborn, argumentative and opinionated. I try not to be rigid, also.)

If this is a leak, you could go from being a winning player to being a YOWZER player.

Yowzers make more money. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]