A donkeys thoughts on donk-bets

inverted · #1 09-09-2007, 01:18 AM

As per the topic I don't want anyone to think that everything I say is gospil, I'm writing this as much to get my own thoughts in line as to get some thoughts and feedback out there. Because of this the post might semi ramble!

On to the subject donk-bets. Firstly what is a donk bet, a donk bet is a bet into the pre flop raiser. Usually it's classified by people as a weak hand, middle pair, TPNK or a pp etc. Some people may do it with trips etc. People usually deal with donk bets by raising, even with air expecting the weak hand to fold.

Ok, why should you donk bet. If you have a weak hand check raising bloats the pot and you might be putting in alot of money behind. Calling a bet however doesn't usually give you any information on the opponent as he would usually cbet, and you are possibly giving a free card to a hand you are ahead of. Often people will call then bet the turn with their weak hands. So with a weak hand donk betting can win you a small pot when your opponent misses while risking the least amount of money. Unfortunately most opps know this and thus raise donk bets with any2 cards.

Donk bets can also be used as bluffs. On an Ace high board donk betting into someone could fold out the preflop raiser if he doesn't hold an ace. Similarly if the flop is less likely to have hit the opp a donk bet will often work as a bluff, ie an 8,3,3 board or a J,7,2 board. Donk betting into a 3flush board or a coordinated board such as 6c,7c,8d seems like a good bluff to me as the opponent is unlikely to continue, thinking that this has hit your range reasonably hard and that he could be drawing dead.

One donk bet play I really like is calling with AK in the BB vs a UTG or UTG+1 raiser. When the Ace flops and you bet frequently he will raise with a weaker Ace which can help maximise value with AK, where as reraising preflop may scare away AJ or ATs.

Another hand which works really well donk betting into people is a reasonable draw, like overs+flush or middle pair + straight draws. When you bet into people you gain fold equity and you are happy to bet/3bet if they do raise you which again adds fold equity. I'm still not sure how much I like donk betting sets and 2pairs, you may lose some value if they fold when usually you would check raise their cbet, I guess this is very villain dependant.

My questions for you guys are where do you donk bet and how do you deal with it? Obviously these are board and villain dependant but I would be interested in your thoughts.

Thanks for reading (:

bknollenberg · #2 09-09-2007, 01:21 AM

you're welcome.

inverted · #3 09-09-2007, 01:32 AM

A couple of donk bets that have happened to me recently

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($7.97)
UTG+1 ($1.85)
MP1 ($10.95)
Hero ($11.94)
CO ($2.39)
Button ($4.18)
SB ($12.77)
BB ($7.80)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.35, 3 folds, BB calls $0.25.

Flop: ($0.75) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $0.4, Hero calls $0.40.

Turn: ($1.55) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets $1, Hero calls $1.

River: ($3.55) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: $3.55

Results in white below: 
Hero has Ah Qs (high card, ace).
BB has 6s Ac (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: BB wins $3.55. 

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG+2 ($5)
MP1 ($2.15)
MP2 ($4.36)
MP3 ($12.61)
CO ($6.76)
Button ($9.83)
Hero ($15.69)
BB ($9.55)
UTG ($2.35)
UTG+1 ($3.17)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.10, 1 fold, MP2 raises to $0.5, 1 fold, CO calls $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.45, 1 fold, UTG+2 folds.

Flop: ($1.70) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $1, MP2 calls $4.36 (All-In), CO folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $7.06

Results in white below: 
No showdown. MP2 wins $7.06. 

Any thoughts on these hands?

In the first hand I think I was best to raise him on the flop. Calling the turn though having just called the flop is fine. Second hand possibly check raising is better than donk betting?

whyzze · #4 09-09-2007, 01:35 AM

i think I just got stupidederer

inverted · #5 09-09-2007, 01:36 AM

Thanks I'm glad I decided to post this then.

I know it's pretty disjointed... I was interrupted mid way through and probably should have started again or something.

Hail Eris · #6 09-09-2007, 05:14 AM

There are certainly good spots to donknet, but they're not the spots that the donks pick. B3Bing a good combo draw into a thinking aggresive player, for example. Or donking a strong hand multiway when many potential callers are sandwiched between you and the PFR. Or donking a flop like JhThX with a hand like AJ multiway, because you know the PFR is unlikely to cbet and many people are often drawing.

mookboi · #7 09-09-2007, 05:26 AM

On your OP post: tl;dr. Wait 'till ya hit Pooh-Bah.

However, comments on hands:

Hand 1: WTF, raise that flop. Your hand is awesome, you probably have a ton of fold equity, you are in position to check behind on turn if he calls & you don't hit, and overall, I raise this flop like always always. If he 3bets, I'm getting it all in with a fistpump. Think about it, you put in .4$ on flop, and $1 on turn. Now if you just raised flop to $1.4, you would have ended up putting in the exact same amount by end of turn, since villain checks turn here most of the time after calling, and you also showed strength. He folds here a lot.

Hand 2: I don't like donk betting here. I mean, I can see why you can argue for it, to find out whether you are beat or not, but he's just not deep enough to do this. I much prefer just c/fing since we missed our set, or CRAI.

Pussy Galore · #8 09-09-2007, 07:18 AM

on hand #1 please raise the flop with 2 over cards and 1 being the nut flush.