How do you play monster draws early in tournaments?

[Fermion5]

I have been losing a lot of chips with monster draws in 27 man SNGs lately. What's the best way to play ? Aggressively? Passively? I'm talking about draws like flush draw with straight draw, flush draw with overcards, flush draw w/ top pair or any combo of the above. Seems like no one will get pushed off on the flop and on the turn the draw loses a lot of value.

Table '60746411 2' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: GoddessIndie (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: Fermion5 (1490 in chips)
Seat 3: Vladamir69 (1480 in chips)
Seat 4: Indy25 (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: piffel (1530 in chips)
Seat 6: grannie55 (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: MarbleRem's (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: deadlunetik (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: DeadEye007 (1500 in chips)
Vladamir69: posts small blind 10
Indy25: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Fermion5 [2c 3c]
piffel: folds
grannie55: folds
MarbleRem's: folds
deadlunetik: folds
DeadEye007: calls 20
GoddessIndie: calls 20
Fermion5: calls 20
Vladamir69: calls 10
Indy25: checks
*** FLOP *** [2h 5c 4c]
Vladamir69: checks
Indy25: bets 20
DeadEye007: calls 20
GoddessIndie: calls 20
Fermion5: raises 160 to 180
Vladamir69: folds
Indy25: calls 160
DeadEye007: calls 160
GoddessIndie: folds
*** TURN *** [2h 5c 4c] [9c]
Indy25: checks
DeadEye007: checks
Fermion5: bets 380
Indy25: raises 920 to 1300 and is all-in
DeadEye007: folds
Fermion5: folds
Indy25 collected 1420 from pot
Fermion5 said, "23 of clubs"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1420 | Rake 0
Board [2h 5c 4c 9c]
Seat 1: GoddessIndie folded on the Flop
Seat 2: Fermion5 (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 3: Vladamir69 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Indy25 (big blind) collected (1420)
Seat 5: piffel folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: grannie55 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: MarbleRem's folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: deadlunetik folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: DeadEye007 folded on the Turn

[Nightlight87]

http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

Set it to 2+2 forum format. Takes too much effort for me to read that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Fermion5]

site gives me an error.

[Nightlight87]

Fair enough, personally I'd have folded preflop, not a fan of low connectors like that. Not sure I can really help.

But since you folded to the 3rd flush card it seems you were only playing for the straight flush, which puts you at 2 outs.

I'd have just checked it down, maybe call depending on reads and size etc. And I'd fold to the shove. But I don't play SNGs/MTT so feel free to ignore all of this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Fermion5]

Not quite sure what you mean when you said I wasn't playing for the flush. Of course I was playing for the flush, but things change when you realize your outs didn't give you a winning hand.

I played it bad by not betting enough on flop to force out a higher flush draw. Also checking it down would have put me in a bad spot if he thought I was scared of the flush. Would have given him an easy opportunity to bluff. I wanted to know on turn if my flush was good. His shove into two players made it almost certain that he had a higher flush.


My questions aren't really about that specific hand. The hand was just an example of a 'monster draw'. I guess a better example would be a hand that happened to me a couple days ago. I'll try to recreate it as best I can. I had TdJd on QxKd2d flop. The guy bet close to pot on flop and I just flat called. On turn he shoves all in me so that I don't have the pot odds to call.

Seems that the beauty of these hands are the fold equity, but you never have much early in tournaments when multiple people see a flop and someone is usually going to be strong. Playing it aggressively on flop just seems to do one of two things: win you a tiny amount of chips when no one has anything or inflate the pot when someone does have something. And an inflated pot makes turn decisions difficult since you will have to commit your whole stack if you base your decision on pot odds.

I guess ideally you want to build a pot on flop and have them fold either on flop, turn, or river if you hit or didn't hit your hand.

How do you decide what to do? Do you play aggressively on flop if you are in position hoping that your opponent checks on turn giving you a free river?

[GoDownSwingn]

What card were you hoping to hit on the turn? It seems with the raise you put in post-flop you would come over top after another club hits on the turn.

I wouldn't be so quick to put this guy on a higher flush. Of course it's possible, but I'd probably put him on two big cards and a four flush, probably with the ace. Something like Ac9x is also a possibility. Just seems like this isn't as automatic of a fold as you think.

With big drawing hands I like to keep the pots small when there is multi-way action in the pots, get a lot of players to see cards and hope one of them pays you off if you hit. If the pot stays small, it's easy to throw your hand away to a big raise or if you don't get there with your draws.

[skip8118]

I wouldnt have played this preflop, but whats the point in playing 23s preflop and then playing that monster draw the way you did on the flop, if you are going to fold when your flush/straight hits because some overpush?

No idea the level you play im assuming smaller since you are in the beginner forum, but at the 3.25 and 6.50 45 man sitngos this play works beautiful this early in the match. You disguised your hand decent enough to where a lot of the looser players look at your little more than 1/2 pot bet and will try to take you off your cards.

What you likely have is some loose player chasing the gutshot with an A and bluffing that A because the board changed or are pushing the Ac for a 4 runner flush. I fold preflop, but the way the rest of the hand played out this early in a sng I think i go broke 95% of the time here.

[Gonso]

Villain could have an over pair or a set, or he could be semibluffing with the Ac or Kc, two pair, I mean there's just so much you're beating here.

I'd have to know the guy real well as a nutpeddler to fold that there.

Also, not a big fan of the hand either, 32s is just crap. Even if you do well with it, you'll have a baby flush or the idiot end of a straight. If you're going to play it, you have the button - raise to try to push the limpers off is anything. (I don't like that play either, but it's better than this).

But yeah, if this is how you're going to play 32s when you complete a flush, don't bother.

[DeuceSeven]

Depends on the buy in. If it's lower people don't fold. I just call if I'm getting decent odds. If i think a player that im heads up can fold I'll go ahead and semi bluff.

[PantsOnFire]

You folded when your draw came in. That's why you are losing chips on big draws. Plus, your draws with cards that low are obviously not going to be nut draws so even when your draw hits, you can either be beat already or draw out by a higher draw.

This hand is not the monster draw you think it is. Your two straight flush outs are the only monsters in this little baby draw.

1. Preflop - this hand has very little value. You are drawing to the low end of a flush and the idiot end of a straight and you have zero high card value. Fold.

2. Flop - good raise. But what was your plan for the rest of the hand? Obviously your straight flush cards would be great. What's your plan if an A hits? Ac? 6? 3? 2? Any other club? What hands are you putting your opponents on at this point? Which of those are you beating?

3. Turn - That's a pretty good card for you. The pot is 600, you have 1280 behind. You bet 380 leaving you 900. Villain is all-in and you are looking at a pot of 1900. The only way you can fold here is if you figure you are beat almost 70% of the time. And if you are beat, you still have two outs which give another 4.5% so you need to be beat about 75% of the time. You simply can't fold here. That's why you are losing chips on big draws.

4. Regarding your choice to tell what you folded, let me echo the words of a great tournament player, TJ Clouthier: "If you are going to tell someone your hole cards, you better be lyin'".