2 hands - similar situations - different lines

nazahl · #1 09-07-2007, 07:04 PM

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

SB ($98)
Hero ($110.45)
UTG ($98.75)
MP ($97)
CO ($100)
Button ($45.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to $3.5, 3 folds, Hero calls $2.50.

Flop: ($7.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $7.5, Hero raises to $19, MP raises to $43.5, Hero raises to $125.95 (All-In), MP calls $57.50 (All-In).

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $1 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

saw flop|saw showdown

MP ($97.50)
Button ($125.40)
Hero ($100.10)
BB ($16.15)
UTG ($177.80)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $1.
1 fold, Button raises to $2, Hero calls $1.50, 1 fold.

Flop: ($5) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $5, Button raises to $20, Hero raises to $103.1 (All-In), Button calls $78.10.

which line is best? does it really make a difference? the first one was really confusing w/ his little 3bet. if he's 3betting that much it's pretty safe to assume he's calling a shove, yea? so should I still jam it w/out fold equity?

2nd one, I think there are some who raise/fold an overpair there (not many) or just think my flop lead is bs and raise as a bluff. which is better than c/r'ing but also miss out in a cbet if he's got air.

dunno really what I'm asking. just kinda guidelines as to when you guys bet/3bet AI with a draw or check/raise it.

kaah · #2 09-07-2007, 07:34 PM

I bet straight out when on hands like this, with that said I like #2 better

goofyballer · #3 09-07-2007, 07:45 PM

As far as whether hand 1 is good, I think it depends on how you balance other hands with flop c/r's. There's a lot of lines you can take, and you can't really call the flop unless you're planning on c/r-ing turn (which isn't awful either) simply because calling flop w/o giving yourself a way to win when you don't turn a flush is spewing money, especially considering that he bet the pot.

So if you c/r, I think you need to let it go to the 3bet unless you think villain is capable of 3b bluffing cause yeah, he's not folding to a shove ever unless he has total air. c/r is an ok flop line as a semibluff to leave yourself with outs + options on the turn when you're flat called, but otherwise you gotta give it up I think.

tbh, I like the c/r line better with the OESFD in hand 2 because you have sick equity and don't mind jamming if something awkward happens like it did in hand 1. With the naked FD (and fwiw, your overs prob aren't good there w/ KQ), you'd like to maximize fold equity.

spivey · #4 09-07-2007, 07:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
tbh, I like the c/r line better with the OESFD in hand 2 because you have sick equity and don't mind jamming if something awkward happens like it did in hand 1. With the naked FD (and fwiw, your overs prob aren't good there w/ KQ), you'd like to maximize fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like leading with combodraws so that you can b3b all in when he raises.

nazahl · #5 09-07-2007, 08:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So if you c/r, I think you need to let it go to the 3bet unless you think villain is capable of 3b bluffing cause yeah, he's not folding to a shove ever unless he has total air.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno looking back, after his 3bet I'm gettin 77.5 to 24.5 so like 3 to 1 and he's got 57 behind. I suck at the maths but isn't the pot just too big to fold now since I'm 2 to 1 to make my hand? I don't hate folding since I only invested 19 but I'm not sure if it's right. somebody wanna help here??

[ QUOTE ]
c/r is an ok flop line as a semibluff to leave yourself with outs + options on the turn when you're flat called, but otherwise you gotta give it up I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, him flatting the flop is supergay when you've got a flush draw. I'm totally clueless when that happens.

I thought the second hand was much better than the first, I'm surprised you'd rather c/r there than b/3bet. b/3bet forces him into a tough spot with an overpair where c/r give him the option of flatting and jamming a safe turn or just calling down.

goofyballer · #6 09-07-2007, 09:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dunno looking back, after his 3bet I'm gettin 94.5 to 24.5 so like 3 to 1 and he's got 57 behind.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYP, and with the 57 behind, you're getting 151.5 to 81.5 which is 1.86:1...so fairly close to the 1.9:1 you need, and close enough that he may fold rarely enough to make it ok. But with close decisions like this, it's better not to put yourself in this situation at all - like, if you price yourself in with a draw then ok, you have to get stacks in when someone shoves over you, but then you just got 100bbs in on a 7bb flop as a 2:1 dog, and no matter how you got there that isn't that great if you can avoid it or somehow leverage some more FE in there for yourself. That's why I'd like to c/r with an OESFD here - you can still be like "lol I shove with 50% equity against you" and get it in, and I c/r flop with sets a lot so showing up with a profitable draw there (as opposed to a naked FD where you're a 2:1 dog and getting it in here, while good for metagame, costs you $$$) will make villain want to play back at these c/r's more cause he's like "lol he does this with draws" which = profit for your good hands.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
c/r is an ok flop line as a semibluff to leave yourself with outs + options on the turn when you're flat called, but otherwise you gotta give it up I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, him flatting the flop is supergay when you've got a flush draw. I'm totally clueless when that happens.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not as bad as you think. If he flats then the pot is still small relative to remaining stacks so you still have lots of room to maneuver.

[ QUOTE ]
I thought the second hand was much better than the first, I'm surprised you'd rather c/r there than b/3bet. b/3bet forces him into a tough spot with an overpair where c/r give him the option of flatting and jamming a safe turn or just calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]

If opponents are regularly flatting flop and jamming turn over your flop c/r's you're going to torch them when you show up with good hands. If he calls down then he's going to be making mistakes against your good hands. It's all an issue of how you balance various plays with your weak draws, strong draws, marginal hands, and good hands.

MYNAMEIZGREG · #7 09-07-2007, 09:16 PM

The answer is it depends on what you normally do, and what villain does. If villain is the type to autoraise any time someone bets into him/her, then b/3b. If villain cbets too often, then c/r.

spivey · #8 09-08-2007, 12:06 PM

After we get 3 bet small on the first hand, am I the only one that is calling this, and pushing a spade/K on the turn, and check/folding to a push on a blank turn?

With a PSB left, I think the implied odds are great because you can usually always stack a 100NL player, even though your hand is face up.

nazahl · #9 09-08-2007, 01:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
After we get 3 bet small on the first hand, am I the only one that is calling this, and pushing a spade/K on the turn, and check/folding to a push on a blank turn?

[/ QUOTE ]

not sure if thats right or not. pretty sure that pushing after his gay 3bet is definitely bad though cause my fold equity has essentially dropped to ZERO and I'm just taking 35% equity for my stack. dunno how much putting that 19 in on the check/raise makes up for this to where folding no longer becomes an option.

its frustrating b/c I'm really just not sure whats best in most of these spots and kinda play them by feel more than anything else. while at the same time I'm sure there is some solid logic behind whats best rather than "it depends"

Shizzle12345 · #10 09-08-2007, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
yeah, him flatting the flop is supergay when you've got a flush draw. I'm totally clueless when that happens.

[/ QUOTE ]
your often good if he flat calls on a flop like this. Either chasing smaller flush, calling with top pair or some other lame pair or draw, and giving up alot on the turn. And if you hit your Q you can bet again and get value out of T or whatever.

Its gay tho when you dont hit and some calling station cant lay down his bottom pair, I aggree.