25NL 2 pair from the big blind

[gedanken]

10NL 6-max has been good to me (thanks, guys!), so I'm trying my first session of 25nl. bought in for $11, thinking it might make some decisions easier...

small blind is 65/2/2.3 over 45 hands
I'm 30/20/4 over that time with good cards, up about $10, haven't shown a single hand down, though I've won quite a few pots.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Button ($7.25)
SB ($28.15)
Hero ($20.20)
UTG ($12.50)
MP ($24.75)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls $0.90, Hero calls $0.75.

Flop: ($3) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks, MP checks.

Turn: ($3) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $1</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $4</font>, MP folds, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises to $7</font>, Hero calls $3.

River: ($17) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $12.5</font> Hero yells obscenities.




So I freaking hate 2-pair from the big blind. I swear I'm going to open-fold it someday. Is it just so transparent that that's what I might have that it can't get action unless it's beat?

I can't actually fold here, can I? Something I could have done on the turn?

[edit: oh, I forgot, this isn't the classic big-blind 2pr, because I called a raise pre. Not too sure about not betting the flop, now that I look at the hand...]

[Jamougha]

Fold preflop, flop is fine. Can't fold this against a drooler.

[Pussy Galore]

preflop call is fine,flop is fine.can't fold this agaisnt a drooler.

[Rounder101]

No you cant fold. I would just shove the turn, since you arent folding to any river bet, and you might be losing some value by not shoving.
Also, I would say that if youve been a 2+2er for about 6 months now, u probably are way better than most of them, so buy in for the full ammount, it is way better.

[Pussy Galore]

excellent adivce on the buy-in

[gedanken]

thanks for the encouragement. got off to a rocky start (some spectacular suckouts, both directions!), but bought in full on a couple tables and finished up $16 over 345 hands, so my first shot at moving up worked out ok.

a turn shove would be for value? I don't see much calling that I can beat. surely I don't see any better hands folding.

nobody likes donking the flop for 1/2 pot to "see where I'm at"?

[Frosteater]

[ QUOTE ]
small blind is 65/2/2.3 over 45 hands

[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
a turn shove would be for value? I don't see much calling that I can beat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why not?
That's not to say I'd shove here, but I can definitely see good points for it. What would call you that you beat? From a 65 VP$IP? Q9 for example. A3 trying to be sneaky. Any Ace, because you obviously can't have anything better than a queen after checking the flop. Any queen, because you obviously can't have anything better than a 9 after betting the turn.
I'm not into going crazy with two pair, but this is a situation where, at least for my inexperienced eye, neither your hand nor his are very well defined and the only hands you're behind to are AQ, sets and 42 (highly unlikely), while your opponent could have a lot of hands you beat and I'd be willing to find out in this spot.

[ QUOTE ]
nobody likes donking the flop for 1/2 pot to "see where I'm at"?

[/ QUOTE ]
As a serious question, why 1/2 pot?
I might be totally off here, but from my experience the "see where I'm at" point relies on information from your opponent and we're playing poker here. Typically your opponent does not want to give out information (at least he shouldn't), so we have to be one step ahead and force him to. I'd suggest we do this by tricking him into believing that we are the ones giving out information and he's in the comfortable spot of reacting to our totally honest actions. So I suggest if you donk here, make it about the same size you'd c-bet here. Next, do this with your A9, do it with 33 (on the same flop), do it with 98s (on the same flop). See where I'm aiming at? If you do it in this fashion, you can donk for information, for value or as a bluff, and everytime you're communicating the exact same line of information to your opponent, which is the information you actually chose to give out: "you better have a hand, if you want to continue".

I see one problem with donking the flop for 1/2 pot to "see where you're at": you donk the flop to "see where you're at". This might sound weird, but I think the mindset of donking the flop to "simply donk the flop" might be more appropriate. As I mentioned, as long as you bet 1/2 pot for value, forget all that since I'm making no sense at all then. But if the size of your bet is actually an indicator of it being a feeler bet, you could run into the problem of your opponent picking it up and giving you inaccurate information. In my opinion this is especially dangerous since this is a multiway pot, so even if MP thinks for a while and then just calls, SB might actually see you betting 1/2 pot (not really strong) and MP just calling as the preflop aggressor (really weak) and come over the top with a checkraise bluff. In that case MP is likely to fold, especially if you fold first, while you're in a horrible situation, "sandwiched" between your opponents and if you really donked to find out where you're at, you'd have to fold now most of the time (as SB is telling you he has you beat and MP told you he has at least some sort of hand), because you wanted to find out in the first place and communicated your intention to do so.

So again, I might be off, but I'd say donk the size of your c-bets, if you're going to donk. I personally wouldn't do it in that case, though. You can, of course, but I think there's a good chance you have the best hand here, though it's nothing to get too excited about, either. If that makes any sense. There are no really dangerous draws on the flop and you have TPMK, I'd assume you wouldn't be too disappointed with a cheap showdown at the moment.
On the other hand you have 12 - 14 cards (every club, every 9, maybe the remaining aces) that would change your hand into a big one on the turn. With this "future potential" checking the flop gives you two options I'd personally prefer to donking in this case:

One way is to check and get a free card if MP checks behind. This is probably suboptimal in case we actually have the best hand and SB holds something like QJ, since we're giving out free cards and won't know if we're up against a two pair hand when facing resistance on the turn (or a slowplayed set). On the other hand, there's no flush draw, just a gutshot straight draw and MP is more or less out of the equation, since he didn't c-bet and most likely has a worse hand. The advantage is that 12 possible turn cards improve an already "not-too-bad" hand drastically and if we wake up on the turn our hand is actually deceptive enough to trap a lot of worse hands, since the cards that improve our hand don't look too dangerous. Even if we don't improve we might get worse hands to bet into us, KQ for example. And if all else fails we can probably see a cheap showdown with TPMK, which wouldn't be too bad, either.

Second option is we check and MP c-bets. Now, all points from the first option still apply but we have an added advantage. If you have a read/stats on MP and know that continuation bets are part of his arsenal, you might consider going for the checkraise. Remember, your hand still is a good one and has potential, but by checkraising you're adding a few extra advantages. First, if you get 3-bet, you really know where you're at and can drop your hand relatively cheap. Second, your communicating so much strength that you might take the pot down right there. Third, you'll probably see a cheap river, especially if just SB calls you and you have position for the rest of the hand. Fourth, and I think this is interesting, you kind of "reverse positions" for the duration of the flop. Remember the tricky situation the 1/2 pot donkbet might lead you into? If MP c-bets the flop, you're last to react and in case SB calls the c-bet, a checkraise is going to put MP in a difficult spot now, unless he has a hand, in other words, you're creating for MP the scenario your 1/2 pot donkbet might have gotten you yourself in. SB has already called his c-bet, indicating he has at least some sort of hand, so if you come over the top, MP faces resistance from both sides and he can't really continue without a hand. Even if MP calls (because he has position) and/or if SB calls (because ... whatever), you're still in great shape, since about 1/3 of the time your 2P/NFD card kicks in on the turn and you can just keep the pressure up.

So, if you donk, I'd make it a bit more deceptive, but I think this isn't a good flop to donk.
And as played, I'd call the river.

[skibbel]

"so I'm trying my first session of 25nl. bought in for $11, thinking it might make some decisions easier..."
Shortstaking 6-max is bad imho, and it changes your play completely, so don't do it.

"I'm 30/20/4"
i doubt it's good to be so loose/agressive at this limit.

And u can't fold river, it's a call AT LEAST.

[Rounder101]

Nice post frost.
I do think shoving the turn is for value, see it this way, if he has us beat and we call, he will put us all in on the river, so anyways we are going to be putting our money in, turn or river, because there is absolutely no way of folding this hand.
If he has something like JT, Q9, any ace, bluff, lets just move in and he will make a wrong call 100% of the time even with gutshots (not that I think he has one here).
For example, if he had Q9, or QK, we call and hit the ace,or any card he sees as a scare card, that might scare him and he might be check/folding river. I just feel youre better shoving the turn.