NL50: KK. Is this turn bet wasted?

AlexB182 · #1 09-04-2007, 10:18 AM

Have only played around 30 hands with villain, seems to be typical TAG with 18/12/1.7, maybe a bit more on the aggressive side...

Simple question: is this turn bet a spew. I think yes, but if I just check there or make an even smaller bet (BTW I think that my bet size here sucks anyway), I invite him to bluff me off my hand with whatever holding...Maybe don't even CB this drawy flop, though I am a habitual CBer?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($57.65)
UTG+1 ($53.25)
MP1 ($14.20)
MP2 ($49.25)
MP3 ($41.55)
CO ($50.25)
Button ($6.70)
SB ($10)
Hero ($61.50)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG+1 calls $0.50, 4 folds, Button calls $0.50, Hero raises to $3.25, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls $2.50, Button calls $2.50.

Flop: ($9.75) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero bets $8.5, UTG+1 calls $8.50, Button folds.

Turn: ($26.75) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero bets $12, UTG+1 raises to $29, Hero ?

Mike Kelley · #2 09-04-2007, 10:25 AM

It's tough to do but I like the bet/fold there. I had the same situation last night and villain laid it down in that spot. I think I bet a little more though. I know it's going against PNL's 1/3 stack rule but I don't know how we avoid it. I think the bet looks strong like you are milking and when he plays back he has a serious hand... It sucks playing OOP. I wonder what a typical Tag limps with since I almost never limp.

threads13 · #3 09-04-2007, 10:27 AM

It looks like your converter got funny on ya. There should only be 3 players on the flop and 2 on the turn.

It is a tough spot, I think you have too much money behind to commit. I can see either betting or checking this flop. If there was a 4th player I would say betting would be better. If it was HU I would like checking more. I don't like giving a free card on this board but if you get called you are done on a lot of turn cards anyways.

On the turn I think you can let it go. That card is not good for you in any way. He either called the flop with a draw and got there or he outflopped you anyways. You have to check-fold this turn and hate it. If you are betting the turn it is because you think your hand is good and you should get AI. I don't think you can but half of your money in and fold profitably against this guy.

Mike Kelley · #4 09-04-2007, 10:29 AM

So sick since villain could easily have TT,JJ,QQ.

Berge20 · #5 09-04-2007, 10:29 AM

C-bet the flop for sure. No reason not to, I think you're being results oriented thinking otherwise.

I agree that if you make a bet here on the turn, less than 1/2 pot is not the right size. If we hold the Kh, I'm more inclined to check here. Regardless, that is a terrible card to come off. It completes a bunch of draws and just makes the hand very hard to play OOP even against something like Ah7x.

Check-Folding seems weak-tight and I probably would bet $17 and be done with the hand if called/raised. Although, a strong case can probably be made just to check the turn and see what happens, but I think he's firing with just about anything in his range.

AlexB182 · #6 09-04-2007, 10:33 AM

You re right threads, button folds to CB on the flop. Don't konw why converter messed it up, thanks for your attention!

No1Addict · #7 09-04-2007, 10:40 AM

[ QUOTE ]
C-bet the flop for sure. No reason not to, I think you're being results oriented thinking otherwise.

I agree that if you make a bet here on the turn, less than 1/2 pot is not the right size. If we hold the Kh, I'm more inclined to check here. Regardless, that is a terrible card to come off. It completes a bunch of draws and just makes the hand very hard to play OOP even against something like Ah7x.

Check-Folding seems weak-tight and I probably would bet $17 and be done with the hand if called/raised. Although, a strong case can probably be made just to check the turn and see what happens, but I think he's firing with just about anything in his range.

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I agree. On the flop you probably have the best hand and there are a lot of draws out there so you have to bet.
The turn hits his range hard so I'm a bit unsure. If you check he might feel you were cbetting with air and take a shot with any part of the flop though so I would also bet in this spot.

CazicT · #8 09-04-2007, 10:47 AM

Really we aren't beating too much on the turn. Maybe TT maybe... JJ PROBABLY raises initially PF...

Other than that, we would be hoping he floated the flop with overs I guess or perhaps has 44 and didn't mind calling a big flop bet. These seem like longshots.

I guess if check/folding is too weak the next best thing is bet/folding. I like a bet on the small side, though probably not quite as small as you did.

I think I agree that if we check he is going to bet almost anything he has. This would be fine, except, like I said, I don't think we are beating much of what he has.

threads13 · #9 09-04-2007, 12:46 PM

A good TAG isn't floating this flop with overs that don't have a draw. In fact, this board hits all of his range right in the face. He could have overlimped lots of SC's and PP's. I would also venture to say that if he called the flop he is betting nearly every turn card that you check.

Mike Kelley · #10 09-04-2007, 12:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A good TAG isn't floating this flop with overs that don't have a draw. In fact, this board hits all of his range right in the face. He could have overlimped lots of SC's and PP's. I would also venture to say that if he called the flop he is betting nearly every turn card that you check.

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I like your ideas here, and I agree with you they should be dumped, that said I probably move all in after he re-raises me because I suck at poker.