PLO8 $50 - Critique my spewy play

YKMM · #1 09-07-2007, 09:06 AM

Villain is very laggy (40/20 in large sample) and peels the flop lightly. The range after the flop bet is large. I have a tight image (on the nitty side) and turn bet is intended to take the pot down.

Comments? Mega-spew?

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.50 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($47.45)
MP ($49)
CO ($9.10)
Button ($53.05)
Hero ($67.55)
BB ($47.05)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
3 folds, Button raises to $1.5, Hero raises to $5, 1 fold, Button calls $3.50.

Flop: ($10.50) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $7.5, Button calls $7.50.

Turn: ($25.50) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $24.25, Button calls $24.25.

River: ($74) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $16.3 (All-In), Hero calls $16.30.

Final Pot: $106.60

franknagaijr · #2 09-07-2007, 09:11 AM

If you have a tight image, is it because you raise primarily w/AAWx as in the example?

In this case, your raise is a laughably small portion of your stack, and these aces were pretty crappy, with only one wheel card and no suits. I would think that these are worth a call and a reraise preflop with an aggro opponent, but otherwise these aces should see a flop cheaply and go home when they miss. As played, you seem to have committed yourself with weak aces, and you opponent presumably either had a hand, or had enough of a read on you to know that two pair was good for high.

bbartlog · #3 09-07-2007, 10:25 AM

Betting less than pot on the flop and then pot on the turn seems backward to me. I would pot the flop and then check/call the turn (against most opponents) or possibly bet 1/2 pot as a blocker if I thought opponent would always pot-bet if checked to.
River should be folded unless you have some crazy read. I realize it's not much more to call but I think this is a bluff like 1% of the time.

bbartlog · #4 09-07-2007, 10:28 AM

these aces should see a flop cheaply

You seriously think so? In my book not reraising AAwx (anywhere, anytime) makes baby jesus cry. In pot limit, anyway.

Buzz · #5 09-07-2007, 05:42 PM

YKMM - I see that Frank and Bart have both already responded. Before I read their responses, I'll give you my thoughts. Then I'll read their responses and maybe have some other thoughts.

Pre-reading-Frank-and-Bart thinking: Keep in mind that I don't play much pot-limit Omaha-8.

Your starting hand looks fine to me. Not great, but O.K. I don't like rainbow hands much but you like it, raise, and get one-on-one with Button. Fine.

Meanwhile Button did raise before the flop - but not enough to steal the blinds. It would look to me like Button had a hand with which he wanted to see the flop (and then maybe see if he had a flop fit or not).

Then this flop is not good for you. You make two pairs, but your low is not good and you have no spade draw.

Maybe you think your two pairs are good, or that your aces add a lot of value to your hand after this flop. I don't.

At any rate, you take a stab at the pot (which seems fine to me). If that worked, all would be well and good - but then when Villain takes the heat and calls, I think maybe you should give Villain credit for possibly having some sort of flop fit.

You're ahead of a random hand after this flop - but you're behind a bona fide fit with this flop. Does Button have a bona fide fit or not? That would be the question in my mind. Give Button a hand like
A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img],5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], not even an exceptional hand by any means, but one that has some sort of decent flop fit for heads-up play, and Hero is behind by about 3:2 (as simulated).

Then the turn is absolutely no good to you, but might well help your opponent. This turn card could give your opponent a good low, or add a heart draw to whatever he had that compelled him to call your flop bet.

But you bet anyway!

Once Button has called your flop bet, does your turn bet knock Villain off a decent flop fit?

I'll give you this: You'd be impossible for me to read!

Meanwhile, you also have no idea what your opponent holds. You're simply banking on your opponent either (1)fearing this seven of hearts was very good for you and getting out of your way with a better hand or (2) not thinking much at all and continuing playing with trash.

In other words, you're banking on your opponent making a mistake because you have made a big bet. (And you're right that your opponent is more likely to make a mistake when you apply the pressure).

However, as soon as you stop bluffing and check, your opponent is probably going to plow into you.

Finally, you check the five on the river and your opponent does plow into you (as you should have expected). I have no idea what the results are. But I think if you somehow won here, your opponent is an idiot.

Now I'll read Frank and Bart's responses.

Hmm.

They don't seem to be on the same wavelength as me (or each other). And they both know how to play pot limit better than I do. So I don't know about my impression. Makes me reticent to share my thoughts.

I realize Hero has flopped two pairs. And I realize that is probably the best high hand immediately after the flop. But I think that's a mirage, because I don't think jacks and fours will hold up - and when they do, it will only be for half the pot. (As simulated against the AQ65-spade-draw hand, Hero
1. improves to a full house or quads 19.78% and wins/loses 1975/3
2. improves to trips 4.27% and wins/loses 296/131
3. does not improve 74.45% and wins/loses 3484/3961.

That would be all right, except roughly 72% of the wins are only for half the pot.
Crudely, 0.5*0.72*5755 + 3*0.28*5755 - 2*1*4245 = 2071.8+4834.2-8490 = -1584.

Looks to me like you have both implied pot odds and reverse implied pot odds. When you scoop, with no low possible, in the simulation you collect an extra bet on the river (implied pot odds) - but when you lose, you lose an extra bet to Villain on the river (reverse implied pot odds). Overall, I think you lose money by betting (or even continuing to a raise) after Button calls your flop bet. Then when the turn enables low, assuming Button makes a low and also has a draw for high, you purely eat it by betting - unless your bet blows Button away.

It's not exactly a bluff, because you do have two pairs. It just seems like over-betting your hand, similar to over-playing aces, a common mistake in Omaha-8.

I think a difference between limit and pot limit games is regulars in limit games don't over-play two-crummy-pair hands much after a two-low-card-flop and then a low enabling turn because you can't blow someone away who wants to play.

I don't like taking the pressure in a limit game, but I'm pretty much going to take it and call you down with any sort of decent hand.

To each his own.

Buzz

bbartlog · #6 09-07-2007, 09:01 PM

I don't think jacks and fours will hold up

True, if you get to the river. But one of the dynamics in pot limit is that you can really charge your opponent on each street. Half the time, the turn will not bring a low card - and in those cases, you will usually be able to take it down, especially if you came out strong on the flop. One other point is that while you would normally have to worry about a repot on this flop, the fact that the ace of spades is in your hand limits the possible strength of your opponent's flop fit.