Last bettor mucking in MTTs

[betgo]

Played the $5K at Turning Stone. I noticed that the last bettor would usually muck a complete bluff rather than turning it over. I sometimes asked them to show. Sometimes people would throw their cards so they were mixed in the muck.

I didn't mind showing down my hand. I turned over 8 high twice and 7 high once. All of those times I was the preflop raiser and last bettor.

Should I ask to see the hand if I am the caller? Should I ask to see the hand if I am another player?

[psandman]

One day I was playing in a $2-$5 cash game. For whatever reason that i can't recall I got involved in a hand with a 7-5 suited. I flopped an open ended straight flush draw. On the river I had completely missed, I was heads up and the pot was around $300. I checked, my opponent checked and I was about to toss my hand in the muck, but decided at the last minute to show my seven high (my five kicker played).

My opponent looks at the board, looks at his hand, looks at my hand, and mucks announcing that I had him out kicked.

Just imagine how angry he would have been if someone at the table had prompted me to show that hand when I was about to muck.

[PantsOnFire]

[ QUOTE ]
Played the $5K at Turning Stone. I noticed that the last bettor would usually muck a complete bluff rather than turning it over. I sometimes asked them to show. Sometimes people would throw their cards so they were mixed in the muck.

I didn't mind showing down my hand. I turned over 8 high twice and 7 high once. All of those times I was the preflop raiser and last bettor.

Should I ask to see the hand if I am the caller? Should I ask to see the hand if I am another player?

[/ QUOTE ]
Let the last bettor muck his bluff. Wait for the pot to be pushed to you, then muck your hand, lying about in the meantime.

One of these days, like psandman suggests, you are going to ask a guy to flip his cards over and the dealer will notice the guy has some weird straight and you will lose the pot.

[iversonian]

No. And not for any practical reason like he might have a winner but because it's against poker etiquette.

[nortonmalc]

[ QUOTE ]
One day I was playing in a $2-$5 cash game. For whatever reason that i can't recall I got involved in a hand with a 7-5 suited. I flopped an open ended straight flush draw. On the river I had completely missed, I was heads up and the pot was around $300. I checked, my opponent checked and I was about to toss my hand in the muck, but decided at the last minute to show my seven high (my five kicker played).

My opponent looks at the board, looks at his hand, looks at my hand, and mucks announcing that I had him out kicked.

Just imagine how angry he would have been if someone at the table had prompted me to show that hand when I was about to muck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was he really outkicked or was it a chopped pot and he screwed up by mucking? The only flop where the 5 plays is 2-3-6-8-and one of 6,8,10,J,Q,K, or A and your opponent has the nut low 7-4 to your 2nd nut low.

[Chipr777]

Never ask to see a mucked hand. It's bad for a the game. Besides if he mucks and you ask to see it his hand becomes live.

[Xanthro]

Let them muck, they honestly might have the winning hand.

I've had people open muck to me when I was playing the board.

22 in the big blind, outside straight draw, medium sized pot and the river missed me but double paired the board, thus counterfeiting my hand and leaving me playing the board. He open mucks.

Sometimes hands you think cannot win, do in fact win. So let them muck.

[daryn]

if they muck you shouldn't have to show your hand to take the pot, right? i've seen it go both ways.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

If you are not involved in the showdown you're a jerk if you ask to see a hand, regardless of the idiotic IWTSTH rule. You're only trying to get free information anyway, so jump OFF the bandwagon and don't ask.

If you are involved in the hand, there isn't much to be gained by asking to see a hand that's been tossed in. If your opponent is tossing, it's obvious they bluffed, so what might you expect to see other than a hand which can't win in a showdown anyway? If you are the presumed winner, the dealer can and should turn over the conceded hand LIVE. So one way he is guaranteed to lose, the other way he's not. He might be mucking a stronger hand than you thought, so if you're asking, you might wish you hadn't. Also, you might wind up just flat pissing him off, which is probably going to be detrimental to everyone.

Now the reason they just toss it of course is so they can avoid giving out information. The power muck is to avoid giving out information, even if someone asks for it within the currently adopted rules of the venue. Quite typical of the entrants to these events, many players will take virtually any edge they can get, regardless of whether it's fair, ethical or otherwise. Kudos to the ones who manage to have some class and just follow the rules and procedures.

[PantsOnFire]

In the cases like OP where the bettor mucks a bluff, I make sure the pot is coming towards me and then I show my hand. There is no need to rub it in unless I have a very good reason to which isn't often.

The rules should be fairly clear that if you are the last guy in the pot with two cards, it is yours by default whether they are face up or face down. I believe some poker rooms might have a rule where a hand has to be shown to win a pot. This might be to prevent animosity building at the table. I have played in home games where all hands must be shown at showdown.

It usually becomes clear at a live table what the norm is for showdowns so just follow that norm and you'll be fine.