Found two pair on the turn in a big pot - turn raise?

[BrassMonkey]

Original raiser is 34/20 over 200 hands. Other guy is unknown. Call or raise on the turn?

PokerStars 3/6 Hold'em (5 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, MP calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP folds, Button calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (9.16 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, Button calls, Hero ?

[yourface]

flop lead may be better, as villain may not cbet when he misses on this board 4ways

as played, c/r the turn for value and call down a 3bet so long as the river isn't a club

[Wolfram]

[ QUOTE ]
flop lead may be better, as villain may not cbet when he misses on this board 4ways

as played, c/r the turn for value and call down a 3bet so long as the river isn't a club

[/ QUOTE ]
spot on.

[larm]

*grunch*

i cant fold to a 3-bet so i think im going with wa/wb line and call down

[Gurravasa]

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*

i cant fold to a 3-bet so i think im going with wa/wb line and call down

[/ QUOTE ]

You are probably WA but if he has a good draw you are just a little ahead. If he has a flush you are not WB since you have many outs to a boat. This is not a WA/WB situation. Most likely you are WA and you should play accordingly if 3-bet you have good redraws if you up against a flush. But you should call river anyhow since the pot is large enough.

[Backstabr]

[ QUOTE ]
*grunch*

i cant fold to a 3-bet so i think im going with wa/wb line and call down

[/ QUOTE ]

NO.

WA/WB means you have a few outs (say, 0-4) if behind and, if ahead, your opponent has a few outs. The latter is very false here b/c of the 3 clubs. The opponents almost certainly have at least 10 outs.

OP, raise the turn and fire a non-club river, call a 3bet and a non-club river.

[Oink]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
flop lead may be better, as villain may not cbet when he misses on this board 4ways

as played, c/r the turn for value and call down a 3bet so long as the river isn't a club

[/ QUOTE ]
spot on.

[/ QUOTE ]

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
flop lead may be better, as villain may not cbet when he misses on this board 4ways

as played, c/r the turn for value and call down a 3bet so long as the river isn't a club

[/ QUOTE ]
spot on.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, the hand you flopped isn't strong enough to want to play a huge pot 4 way oop. even if you are behind, you would love for PFR to raise to face the field with 2 cold, so this is a good spot to donk for protection.

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
flop lead may be better, as villain may not cbet when he misses on this board 4ways

as played, c/r the turn for value and call down a 3bet so long as the river isn't a club

[/ QUOTE ]
spot on.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, the hand you flopped isn't strong enough to want to play a huge pot 4 way oop. even if you are behind, you would love for PFR to raise to face the field with 2 cold, so this is a good spot to donk for protection.

[/ QUOTE ]


the problem with this logic is:

1. If the PFR has AK, he folds, or calls = no protection

2. If the PFR raises = protection.

It also equals = you are losing

I like the flop c/r. Get a bunch of ppl to pay 2sb when have the likely best hand.

[Absolution]

What do you do in this spot when you get 3-bet on the flop, but don't improve on the turn? I mean when the guy is particularly straight forward. I seem to almost always be WB in this spot, but end up calling down hoping for a stubborn 3-bet with whiffed overcards.