General rebuy question - Why rebuy when bust?

[drgfire]

Lately I've been playing a few rebuys and was wondering if it's really a good idea to rebuy when bust. I'm not talking about the initial rebuy or the addon, these are mandatory I think. It's about when you bust, either because of some bad beat or maybe a little too much risk...

Somehow I come to think (double-) rebuying is a bad idea and here's why. You suddenly have 0 chips and have to buy your initial starting chips *again*, 2 buyins for the double-rebuy. That seems like a bad deal to me, because the starting stack isn't worth as much now as it was at the beginning. There are more chips in play now and therefore the fraction of chips I get is smaller. Additionally, I'm at a disadvantage because there likely are some huge stacks already and I have to start building a stack from scratch.

Wouldn't it be "money-wiser" to just forget about this tourney and play the next one? Would also cost 2 buyins, but without the disadvantages just mentioned.

Another related thought: Assume you consequently don't rebuy when bust. A lot of people do however. These people give you a big overlay, right? This fact alone makes me think it's smarter to not rebuy...

I hope I could make my point at least somewhat clear, it's not easy in a foreign language. Do you think I'm way off in my thinking? I'd be glad to hear some opinions, thanks.

[levAA]

for me it depends how far the tournament has gone.
if its up to the end of the rebuy period i also don't rebuy - cause also with 2 rebuys my stack is much shorter than the average - here i also think it's better to start another one.
if i'm still in the beginning with low blinds and low average stack i do the rebuy, cause it doesn't matter if i do it here or in the next tournament.
btw i don't think the first rebuy is mandatory at all, as you have good chances to double up during the crazy play of the first rounds if you catch something good and get the chips for free. if i don't get the cards i rebuy most times in level 2 or 3.

[black666]

Don't play the rebuys, if you are not willing to rebuy!!

The beauty of rebuys is that you are able to build a big stack and give yourself a better chance at winning the tournament. Take the $3R at PS for example. After the rebuy+addon phase the average stack is around 8.000. If you just bought in once, played tight and doubled up one time with a flush, you are at 3.000 .. or maybe 4.000 with some other small pots. But now your are at a BIG disadvantage, as you have only half of the average chip count when the real poker begins.

Think of the first phase of a rebuy as a matter of chips-buying. There is not much poker going on .. just shoving any drawing hand or PP and hope to get a big stack. If you lose, you rebuy and try again .. until you reach your chipgoal.
And this is also the reason, why it's important to double rebuy. If you double up, you want to double to a 6.000 stack and not 3.000.

Sure..it sucks, paying $30 for a $3R and still bust .. but the reward for making the final table is bigger than at your usual $3 MTT.

[MJBuddy]

The reason you rebuy is that cEV to rebuy is higher than the initial buy-in of the MTT (thus making it +EV to rebuy rather than start up a new MTT). Also, people aren't rebuying sometimes - some people don't double rebuy, some people bust and leave, etc. You absolutely cannot leave before the rebuy period ends as far as I'm concerned. So much dead money is made there, and you're (even with a 4 or 5k stack with an average of 10k) in great shape as maniacs don't tighten up and you can use decent fold equity to double.


If I enter the bubble on a MTT 170/180, I can (and have) run to the final three tables. Nursing the short stack is downright fun for me sometimes and if you can't do it correctly, you're missing out on tons of equity.

[Pokerfarian]

[ QUOTE ]
That seems like a bad deal to me, because the starting stack isn't worth as much now as it was at the beginning. There are more chips in play now and therefore the fraction of chips I get is smaller.
Another related thought: Assume you consequently don't rebuy when bust. A lot of people do however. These people give you a big overlay, right? This fact alone makes me think it's smarter to not rebuy...


[/ QUOTE ]
It's NOT -EV to rebuy. Sure, you have a smaller fraction of the chips in play, but the prize pool is bigger - your chips are still worth the same. Similarly, you aren't gaining any overlay from people rebuying. It might still be a good idea to enter the next tourney instead, e.g. your largest edge may come from the rebuy period and you'd rather invest your money with the whole of that period to come, or similar factors, but it's not -EV to rebuy when bust. Also consider you pay rake initially but not on rebuys.

[Sherman]

I love it when people bust and leave in rebuy tournaments. That is like free equity for me.

I played a 4.4R sat the other day in which over 1/3 of the starters quit.

100 runners started and 33 left! After the add-on period, 22 seats were handed out. That meant, 33% of the remaining field got a seat! I thought it was an amazing deal. All because a bunch of dead money had already given up their equity.

[MJBuddy]

A good argument has even been made about not double rebuying in rebuy sats because it doesn't effect your equity (must take the add-on) as much and almost *isn't* neccessary because so many people ditch.

[drgfire]

Ok, thanks guys the great replies so far. I'm afraid I'm still not fully convinced though...

MJBuddy:
[ QUOTE ]
The reason you rebuy is that cEV to rebuy is higher than the initial buy-in of the MTT (thus making it +EV to rebuy rather than start up a new MTT)

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this because there are more chips in play?


Pokerfarian:
[ QUOTE ]
It's NOT -EV to rebuy. Sure, you have a smaller fraction of the chips in play, but the prize pool is bigger - your chips are still worth the same. Similarly, you aren't gaining any overlay from people rebuying. It might still be a good idea to enter the next tourney instead, e.g. your largest edge may come from the rebuy period and you'd rather invest your money with the whole of that period to come, or similar factors, but it's not -EV to rebuy when bust. Also consider you pay rake initially but not on rebuys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure I understand that. You say that it might be a good idea to start a new tourney, but it's not -EV to rebuy and play on. Doesn't this contradict?
Why exactly is it +EV?


Sherman:
[ QUOTE ]

I love it when people bust and leave in rebuy tournaments. That is like free equity for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. For the others a leaving guy is great. But that's no argument for advocating a rebuy for the busted one. Maybe the argument is that many people don't rebuy and leave. Hmmm, what about this question:

If everybody always rebuyed when bust, would you still do it?

[Sherman]

[ QUOTE ]
If everybody always rebuyed when bust, would you still do it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[MJBuddy]

[ QUOTE ]

Is this because there are more chips in play?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's because you don't have a rake and there's overlay.