Problems with AK facing a 3bet

[ama0330]

I've been thinking about AK facing a 3bet. I apologise if this is bulk standard but I am a 100nl newb.

You and villain are both solid TAG's, meow chow, 21/17/4, whatever. You both have been 3betting a bit light, and you both thus far have folded to one anothers respective 3bets.

You pick up AKo OTB and raise to $4. Villain 3bets from the SB to 13. Do you call, or 4bet?

My thoughts:

If you 4bet you turn your hand into a bluff because if he shoves, you are pretty much behind his entire range as neither of you has 4bet before. His range for you has to be pretty narrow and to shove over that range indicates a lot of strength making calling that shove really thin.

If you just call his 3bet and hit an ace on the flop he has to have aces to get his stack in, and he will usually be folding to huge pressure with one pair type hands. Similarly if he has a K he is going to have to be pretty strong himself or pretty stupid to get his stack in for 100bbs versus your range.

If you call his 3bet and miss the flop there are a lot of flops which suck for you, because he wont fold a TT type hand on almost any board thats not A or K high, which is bad for us because he wont fold when we want him to, and will fold when we dont want him to.


I feel like I'm overthinking this. There has to be a simple wat to play AKo in position to a 3bet from a good tag... Help?

[Fiksdal]

If we are both aggro, its 100bbs stacks, and its BTN/blinds play, I about always just shove here.

[ama0330]

[ QUOTE ]
If we are both aggro, its 100bbs stacks, and its BTN/blinds play, I about always just shove here.

[/ QUOTE ]

but if you shove, its a bluff, no? and is a 4bet shove not a little excessive?

edit i.e. shoving 100 over 13

[cooker3]

If he is 3 betting a lot then you should start 4 betting somewhat light and ak should be apart of that range.

I don't mind calling though and seeing what the flop brings, mix it up

[BigPoppa]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we are both aggro, its 100bbs stacks, and its BTN/blinds play, I about always just shove here.

[/ QUOTE ]

but if you shove, its a bluff, no? and is a 4bet shove not a little excessive?

edit i.e. shoving 100 over 13

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not shoving 100 over 13, you're shoving 87 over 27. Once you call, there is 27 (13 from each of you + 1 from BB) in the pot and you have 87 behind.

Sure it's an overbet, but you really don't mind taking down the pot now and want to see all 5 cards if you get called.

There's not really a comfortable amount to 4bet other than a shove. Are you going to 4bet to 40 and fold to a shove getting over 2:1? What if villain flat calls the 4bet and shoves a low flop (which he might do with QQ/JJ).

FWIW: I will sometimes shove AA/KK from the Button here, because it looks so much like AK.

[Fiksdal]

[ QUOTE ]
If he is 3 betting a lot then you should start 4 betting somewhat light and ak should be apart of that range.

I don't mind calling though and seeing what the flop brings, mix it up

[/ QUOTE ]

this is teh suck, because if he is 3betting you light, his cbet pwns you on low flops. He makes you fold the best hand a lot (cuz I'm pretty sure he 3bets AJs and AQ here and cbets all the flops)

fwiw I also shove AA here cuz it looks a lot less suspcious than a PSB. A PS 4bet is also teh suck obv.

[djj6835]

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fwiw I also shove AA here cuz it looks a lot less suspcious than a PSB. A PS 4bet is also teh suck obv.

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A ps 4 bet is fine as long as you don't fold.

edit: after the flop, obviously folding preflop is out of the question.

[Oct0puz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If we are both aggro, its 100bbs stacks, and its BTN/blinds play, I about always just shove here.

[/ QUOTE ]

but if you shove, its a bluff, no? and is a 4bet shove not a little excessive?

edit i.e. shoving 100 over 13

[/ QUOTE ]

It's more of a semi-bluff. You hope to take it down right away, but even if you get called you still have a decent amount of equity against his range and you will often be flipping.

Even if you knew that he only calls with AA/KK it's still better to shove with AK than AT, because it makes it less possible that his got KK. The possibillity that you are up against AA/KK when you have AK is the same as being up against AA with KK, which happens very rarely.

[cooker3]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If he is 3 betting a lot then you should start 4 betting somewhat light and ak should be apart of that range.

I don't mind calling though and seeing what the flop brings, mix it up

[/ QUOTE ]

this is teh suck, because if he is 3betting you light, his cbet pwns you on low flops. He makes you fold the best hand a lot (cuz I'm pretty sure he 3bets AJs and AQ here and cbets all the flops)

fwiw I also shove AA here cuz it looks a lot less suspcious than a PSB. A PS 4bet is also teh suck obv.

[/ QUOTE ]

And what about on high flops when your crushing him etc but in general if he is 3 betting light then yeah I am much more inclined to 4 bet him but I occasionally like to call as my 3 bet call range will be wider and AK is part of this

[mbman]

I have also been thinking about this spot.

What about calling and shoving all but the very worst flops? If he is decent, he should be a bit worried that you are trapping with a big hand or has flopped a set with a pp if you shove on like a T67-board. I mean, if I face that action and am holding JJ, I at least think twice before calling my stack off in that spot. And also, if he is 3-betting light, he shouldn´t hit the flop all that often, so he should only rarely have a hand he can call you with.

This way, you can sometimes bluff him off a better hand, and also, you will win more money every time you do that as compared to shoving preflop, since the pot will be larger. The downside is obv that he will outdraw you on the flop, but that shouldn´t happen to often for the flopshove to be -EV.

Thoughts on this very welcome, especially as comparisions between shoving preflop and calling and shoving most flops.
Thougths on this strategy?