Theory Question : Unexploitable Plays

IcemanDan · #1 08-07-2007, 12:56 PM

In z32's article where he walks through a 110, he mentions on hand 63 that pushing KTo from the button is an unexploitable play.

I guess I understand what this means (blinds call too wide = win more showdowns, blinds call too tight = take down blinds often enough to more than compensate for being behind when called), but I'm not seeing how to recognize when these situations arise.

Is there some sort of sweet spot for stack sizes/calling ranges that leads to unexploitable situations? Thoughts?

ledders07 · #2 08-07-2007, 12:59 PM

i was thinking the exact same thing when i read it

johnnyknish · #3 08-07-2007, 12:59 PM

the sweet spot is very situational which is what the ICM calculations and sit n go wiz are for. generally however your looking to push hands when you have 10bb or less. you have to be able to read your opponets genral hand ranges for calling. then you have to decide if the all in is worth the risk. once again though it depends on position and oyur stack size, and also your opponets ranges.

sence25 · #4 08-07-2007, 01:09 PM

in this case it seems like it doesn't depend on ranges, johnny.

JoeSchmo · #5 08-07-2007, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the sweet spot is very situational which is what the ICM calculations and sit n go wiz are for. generally however your looking to push hands when you have 10bb or less. you have to be able to read your opponets genral hand ranges for calling. then you have to decide if the all in is worth the risk. once again though it depends on position and oyur stack size, and also your opponets ranges.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your post is spot on in general about late game play. However, unexploitable plays like the OP is looking for, are what they are because your opponents' ranges don't matter.

OP, think of it as when your hand is so good, opponents to act are so few, and stacks are so small that there is nothing they can do to keep you from gaining EV by pushing.

johnnyknish · #6 08-07-2007, 01:27 PM

AHH so its more like a hand thats pretty strong that either a call or a fold it does not matter. which would in that case probably include hands like QJ J10. all hands that have a fairly decent chance of winning an all in against your opponets ranges

splashpot · #7 08-07-2007, 01:37 PM

It's a hand that is a push no matter what your opponent's calling range is. Even if he calls 100% of the time, your best move is still push.

IcemanDan · #8 08-07-2007, 02:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
It's a hand that is a push no matter what your opponent's calling range is. Even if he calls 100% of the time, your best move is still push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm, ok. That makes sense. So that would mean the very best hands are unexploitable when the stacks are big, and then that range grows as blinds increase and opponent stack sizes decrease?

splashpot · #9 08-07-2007, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a hand that is a push no matter what your opponent's calling range is. Even if he calls 100% of the time, your best move is still push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm, ok. That makes sense. So that would mean the very best hands are unexploitable when the stacks are big, and then that range grows as blinds increase and opponent stack sizes decrease?

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh, kinda. No hands are unexploitable when the stacks are big. For example it would be foolish to push level 1 with AA. You are right, however, about more hands becoming unexploitable as the stacks get smaller and blinds get bigger. But, usually blinds have to VERY big in comparison to the stacks for an unexploitable situation to occur.

JoeSchmo · #10 08-07-2007, 03:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's a hand that is a push no matter what your opponent's calling range is. Even if he calls 100% of the time, your best move is still push.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hm, ok. That makes sense. So that would mean the very best hands are unexploitable when the stacks are big, and then that range grows as blinds increase and opponent stack sizes decrease?

[/ QUOTE ]
Uhh, kinda. No hands are unexploitable when the stacks are big. For example it would be foolish to push level 1 with AA. You are right, however, about more hands becoming unexploitable as the stacks get smaller and blinds get bigger. But, usually blinds have to VERY big in comparison to the stacks for an unexploitable situation to occur.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just because it's not the most EV play doesn't make something exploitable. For instance, pushing AA (and prob. KK-QQ) in level 1 of a SNG is unexploitable. This is just semantics though mostly. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]