Did I play my KTs correctly?

JamesBJames · #1 08-06-2007, 07:25 PM

This hand confused me a little bit. No specific reads on anyone (No PT; wasn't at the table long enough). Did I extract value as best as I could, or could I have made a few changes throughout the hand? My thought process is noted below.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, Hero raises (1), CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11 SB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets (2), CO raises, Button calls, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls (3).

Turn: (9.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, Hero checks (4), CO bets, Button calls, SB calls, Hero calls. (4)

River: (13.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB bets, Hero calls (5), CO raises, Button folds, SB calls, Hero 3-bets (6), CO calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 22.50 BB

(1): Is the raise here preflop standard? I figured I could buy the button or possibly get it heads-up with the limper. With only one limper, though, does anyone reccomend calling?

(2): Standard continuation bet.

(3): I'm not sure what to do here. I can either call down and chase my draws, or raise, since I might have enough equity. My draws will come in more than 25% of the time by the river, right? This is probably my most important question in my opinion, and I'd like to hear what you say to it.

(4): Considering my flop call, I'm sure a turn check/call is ridiculously standard.

(5): Hero goes for overcalls; hopes a ten might raise behind him. With only one person to act behind me, I'd definitely raise, but what do I do with two?

(6): And now I raise, knowing that the CO and the SB will call at least one more.

Xhad · #2 08-06-2007, 07:33 PM

It's good until you called the river. My browser ate my explanation but suffice it to say that since you beat Tx and only have 2 prospective overcallers behind you, and since Tx often 3bets you anyway and SB frequently has precisely this hand, I think you should just get value from one card straights instead of trying to milk in the event that CO has a set/2pair and won't call 2 with it. I like your river play a lot better with AT because you don't want to go to 4 bets and getting HU with T9 means you can't make any money.

MrWookie · #3 08-06-2007, 07:34 PM

2 is not just a standard cbet. You should be much, much less inclined to mindlessly cbet into 4 opponents, esp. w/o good position. However, that's not to say this is not a bet.

3 how should your relative position to the raiser affect your decision to call or reraise?

4 ya rly

5 I think I raise it up the first time. You won't get called for either one or two bets by many non-T-bearing hands, and Tx hand will call almost any number of bets. They might even let you cap.

Point Blank · #4 08-06-2007, 07:50 PM

1/ generally a raise

2/ just because you raised PF doesn't mean you should be betting every flop ... essentially you are bluffing when you bet the flop and have nothing (you have 4 opponents and a highly connected in the playing zone flop ... do you think you'll be folding many hands here?) ... also CO must be considered here as well

3/ what equity do you think you have ... just don't say you might have enough equity to raise show it (and just because you're draws might come in x% of the time doesn't mean they'll win)

4/ [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

5/ generally raise ... epecially at 10c-20c level (people really suck and call with all kind of crap)

if you have reads of some kind (like CO is a complete mental retard and will just continue to bet and raise) - then I like it ...

JamesBJames · #5 08-06-2007, 07:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2 is not just a standard cbet. You should be much, much less inclined to mindlessly cbet into 4 opponents, esp. w/o good position. However, that's not to say this is not a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alrighty then, I'll try to explain myself on this one. I'm betting because I have a very drawy hand with lots of outs. Any 7, any queen, a spade, or a king can improve my hand significantly. I'm definitely not ahead right now on this board, but I have many outs to improve. Also, if I can get the CO to fold, I can take a free card on the turn should I choose, although it depends on how it plays out after my bet.

[ QUOTE ]
3 how should your relative position to the raiser affect your decision to call or reraise?

[/ QUOTE ]

Relative position is something I desperately need to read up on more, but I'm assuming that in this case, my position in relation to the raiser isn't that great since he acts right after me. If he calls my flop 3-bet, he can act tricky and raise the turn. I'm probably just better off trying to hit my draws. Wookie, can you explain your thoughts on this a little bit more?

[ QUOTE ]
5 I think I raise it up the first time. You won't get called for either one or two bets by many non-T-bearing hands, and Tx hand will call almost any number of bets. They might even let you cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

After thinking about the suggestion that you and Xhad offered, I agree with you. I was too afraid a non-ten hand would fold and that I might only get one bet out of the small blind. However, considering how most of them played the hand, a 10 probably is likely for at least one of the players, in which case, a raise is a lot better.

00Snitch · #6 08-06-2007, 07:57 PM

First reply! edit: uhhh, ok, there were about 400 replies in the time it took me to write that [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Wow, nice table!

1: Yes, preflop raise here is standard.

2: This isn't really a "standard continuation bet". I consider a "standard continuation bet" to be when you have good fold equity and/or a possibly best hand you wish to protect (even UI overs).

In this case, you have no fold equity and are very unlikely to have the best hand. Even so, I think your bet is correct because you have fairly high equity. With your nut-straight (albeit 1-card), back-door flush draw and shakey over card you probably have nearly 10 outs, giving you somewhere just over 35% equity.

I dunno, I guess, it doesnt matter whether or not you call this a "standard continuation bet", the point is, it probably is a good bet. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

3: Good call. You have to be careful here. If you 3-bet and CO caps, the guys who so graciously cold-called, may not be willing to put two more bets in. Futher to that, CO showing strengh could ruin you equity if he has a made straight or a straight draw that you will split with. Further to that, your equity could be over esstimated if he has something like two-pair or a set, which reduces your effective outs.

4: ldo.

5: Hrmm, I never know when to go for over-calls. I think I like this. You might find that the guys behind you will call one bet with two-pair and sets and maybe top pairs, which there are more of than the only hand they will call two or ore with (Tx). If they were drawing, they either hit and you will be splitting or they will fold anyway.

6. Yer, go hard. You're probably just feeding the rake and splitting the pot here, but keep raising in-case someone is calling with two-pair/set.

Finally, for my last trick, I will reveal CO had JT, SB had T9 and we split 3-ways!. LDO!

MrWookie · #7 08-06-2007, 07:58 PM

On 3, the things we need to bear in mind is that we'll be in a great position to c/r if we hit, and we're in a bad position to try for a free card. By raising, we get a really slim increase in our immediate EV, but it's small compared to charging the whole field two bets if we hit the nuts. If we don't hit, we're likely to have to pay 1 BB to draw on the turn whether we raise or not, so trying for a free card doesn't really help us.

Xhad · #8 08-06-2007, 08:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
5: Hrmm, I never know when to go for over-calls. I think I like this. You might find that the guys behind you will call one bet with two-pair and sets and maybe top pairs, which there are more of than the only hand they will call two or ore with (Tx). If they were drawing, they either hit and you will be splitting or they will fold anyway.

6. Yer, go hard. You're probably just feeding the rake and splitting the pot here, but keep raising in-case someone is calling with two-pair/set.

Finally, for my last trick, I will reveal CO had JT, SB had T9 and we split 3-ways!. LDO!

[/ QUOTE ]

Snitch, hero is beating 1 card straights on this river which is why I think the raise is so clear.

CrMenace · #9 08-06-2007, 08:05 PM

SUPER GRUNCH

PF: From LP, I like raising KTs. It is likely to be stronger than the opponent's hand, and I'd like to get it heads up. If there are callers, I'm okay with that, too -- KTs is a good hand multi-way.

Flop: This is more than a standard c-bet. You now have an OESD on a rainbow flop, which puts me in near ecstacy. The only thing that gets me more excited are all the players calling two bets cold. You do have over 25% equity (29% is the rule of thumb number I use), plus you have the overcard K (although on this flop is not worth that much) and a BDFD. I would raise it up again as you have well over our fair share of pot equity.

Turn: Okay, a blank comes on the turn. As you played it, I think the check is correct. Even if I had bet the flop hard, I probably check here as well. There's no chance I'm taking everyone out, and I'm just not very worried about concealing my hand. I also don't want to get raised as I have a strong draw that I know I will have to call.

River: Question now becomes how to maximize value. Raising will perhaps get us one more bet out of SB, plus more if either villain cold calls (which given the way they've behaved to date appears somewhat likely), but may also result in everyone folding out. Calling gets one to two more bets in most situations. I like going for the overcall, and given that it opened up to a bigger opportunity, you played it correctly from there, too.

JJack · #10 08-06-2007, 08:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
2 is not just a standard cbet. You should be much, much less inclined to mindlessly cbet into 4 opponents, esp. w/o good position. However, that's not to say this is not a bet.

3 how should your relative position to the raiser affect your decision to call or reraise?

4 ya rly

5 I think I raise it up the first time. You won't get called for either one or two bets by many non-T-bearing hands, and Tx hand will call almost any number of bets. They might even let you cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

3) do we have to have possition when villians are traped and we have good pot equity to raise?

we have at flop 2.2:1 so if we can trap more then 2 villians we make profit if we win.
For me problem is that we cant loose with bigger str8 when we hit 7 (we lose with QT)

I dont understand why it is important possition when we think about profite raise using pot equity concept [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

EDIT: ok now i understand i was writing it during Wookie replies [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]