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#1
08-07-2007, 02:56 AM
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1-2 at Commerce
I raise UTG with AhTd (I know some fold, whatever).....Steve Banks and Eva both cold call (hand range for those who dont know them is any 2 from j7s to Aqo....very wide range! Tongni calls out of BB.....flop KdTc4d..
I bet, Steve and Eva calls and Tongni raises, we all call....turn is 2d......Tongni bets, what is my turn play? Calling I think is terrible.....folding I think is fine may be in trouble and 2 to act behind me.....raise and try to clean up my outs as an A or diamond may complete qj or kjd or qdt...... Thoughts? 
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#3
08-07-2007, 04:04 AM
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Re: 1-2 at Commerce
what about checking the flop? and seeing how the action develops?
After you bet and Topngni c/r's I lean towards 3betting After you just call I would call turn and make a decision on river. JT
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#4
08-07-2007, 04:32 AM
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Re: 1-2 at Commerce
i really hate folding... but i think if i was in this spot and i thought about this for a little folding would be the obviously correct thing to do here
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#5
08-07-2007, 05:14 AM
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Re: 1-2 at Commerce
Very tricky spot, i think in the moment i would tend to raise sometimes and call sometimes, but a fold is most prudent. The thing here is that you want/need to raise to clean up flush outs as you mentioned, but the cost of doing so could make it not worth since tongni could easily have a flush and will 3 town your ass with two pair or better anyway because he's solid and knows he's well ahead of your range. So the since you would need to raise to clean up outs and expose yourself to being 3 bet correctly by a wider range than usual (and not even neccesarily cleaning your outs up 100%), i think a fold becomes better than a call.
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#6
08-07-2007, 05:17 AM
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Re: 1-2 at Commerce
fold. The best case scenario is that tongni has black KJ and you can raise the turn and get one of the monkies to fold the Qd (which may not be a guarantee anyway), but I think that is just too unlikely to happen.
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#7
08-07-2007, 08:13 AM
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Re: 1-2 at Commerce
I personally 3 bet the flop and since you didn't I would fold the turn for the same reasons than ggbman... You could already be drawing dead and with still 2 to act it's more prudent to just throw it away. I fold preflop too, ATo is a trouble hand full ring UTG [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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#8
08-07-2007, 11:27 PM
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Re: 1-2 at Commerce
I purposely did not 3 bet the flop because neither player behind me is folding a K here (for 2 bets on the flop) and I now have the initiative and have to go to showdown and can not win most likely (without improving).....since we were 4 handed there is a decent chance that he has a flush draw or QJ building a pot with 4 ways so planned on raising the turn if it bricked and forcing the bad K behind me to fold or call 2 cold with a draw and then I will check the river to see if I was against a K or draw......It is very hard for him to 3 bet me on the turn or lead the river here with just a K (as my hand looks very strong) so if a blank rolls off and he 3 bets my turn raise I can probably just ditch it.......
Now the Diamond comes off and it makes me stop because now I am significantly behind a larger range of his hands, but a raise here does enable me to get a K to fold behind me on the off chance he has qj (I know its the least likely hand, but still possible) and get a better draw behind me to fold in case he just has a K or K4s (2 pair) both of these hands I have 14 outs against if I can clean up my outs...... Thoughts?
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#9
08-08-2007, 03:36 AM
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Re: 1-2 at Commerce
[ QUOTE ]
......It is very hard for him to 3 bet me on the turn or lead the river here with just a K (as my hand looks very strong) so if a blank rolls off and he 3 bets my turn raise I can probably just ditch it....... [/ QUOTE ] I may suck at poker but I definitely would not read your hand as strong if you took this line. If a blank rolled off on the turn and you raised you can never have a big hand right? If a complete blank came on the turn and you raised me, if I was in Tongni's spot I would 3 bet if I had a draw and I would call and donk a safe river if I had a king. Am I the only one that feels this way? Anyway thats beside the point, a bad card came on the turn and now I think it's time to just fold it. I also don't think that tony is ever folding KQ, I know I certainly wouldn't.
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#10
08-08-2007, 08:14 AM
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Re: 1-2 at Commerce
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] ......It is very hard for him to 3 bet me on the turn or lead the river here with just a K (as my hand looks very strong) so if a blank rolls off and he 3 bets my turn raise I can probably just ditch it....... [/ QUOTE ] I may suck at poker but I definitely would not read your hand as strong if you took this line. If a blank rolled off on the turn and you raised you can never have a big hand right? If a complete blank came on the turn and you raised me, if I was in Tongni's spot I would 3 bet if I had a draw and I would call and donk a safe river if I had a king. Am I the only one that feels this way? [/ QUOTE ] Really? I 90% of the time would play AA, AK, TT or if I happen to raise UTG (not normally, but if had) 44 or KTs this exact way....i want to punish the draws on that draw heavy board...3 betting the flop with the aggression directly on your right can not be right....protecting your hand and making the draw pay a big price with one card to come has to be your priority....if you play kq the way you suggest against me in the exact way you described is a losing way....maybe against others, but I have KQ beat WAY more often than not. Not sure when the diamond rolls off if folding is better or raising, but I really think the line I planned on taking if a blank rolls off is correct.... Oh and you dont suck at poker, I respect your opinion a lot. Other opinions.....
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