86o BB defense live at the Bellagio

[Aaron W.]

Bellagio 15/30

Folded to the cutoff where a youngish player open-raises. I don't know a whole lot about him. He seems to be a regular there because the staff seems to know him. I was warned earlier in a random conversation with the floor that he "raises often". From what I've observed, he's a basically decent to solid player who isn't getting out of line a whole lot.

Anyway, SB calls and I defend with 86o.

The flop comes out 554 rainbow. We check to the young guy who follows through with the obligatory bet and then SB raises.

SB is a guy who I feel like I should have a better read on than I really do. He's a pretty quiet person and seems a little loose, but has no other really distinguishing characteristics that I've noticed. If I were sitting next to him, I probably would have a better sense of his play, but there are a couple people walking (sitting out) so we're actually on opposite ends of the table. Most of my attention has been given to the more LAG characters who are making the game very juicy.

I've got two overs and a gutshot on a low paired board in a steal-type situation. There are 9 SB in the pot and it's two to me. I should...

[BigBadBabar]

well my first instinct was to 3bet, but i can't really explain why i thought that...maybe just as a "feel" play. i guess the explanation is restealing from sb and putting the pfr on overs and not a big pair. i should note that i have been in very aggro 6max games online, which probably explains my urge for this spewy play. however, against thinking opponents live, when i have a tight image, i try this play every now and then and it works more than its fair share of times.

that being said, i think folding is the right play math and theory and playing-straightforwardly-wise. our two overs are not really worth mentioning since everyone else usually has better overs if not a bigger pair already, and we're not getting close to our gutshot odds to draw.

fold and move on.

[Niediam]

I would fold preflop. If SB would have folded I would definately play though. But once it's not headsup I don't want a hand which is usually going to make middle or bottom pair when it hits. If we had something like 86s or JTo then I think calling would be fine as we have more big hand potential.

I can't imagine the flop is anything but a fold. If the SB would have folded flop then I can see raising.

[Sushiglutton]

First we need to put SB on a range (buttons range is just his steal range). This is very difficult with no reads on him. Also I have never played anywhere near this high.
His pf call make a PP unlikely (because almost everyone knows the importance to play them HU) unless he was SP AA or KK.
This leaves a 5 or 4 , or similar hand to urs like 78s, or a complete bluff.
I think we should fold. If SB holds a 5 we are in big trouble. If he has a draw, some of our outs will be dirty. Also Button could still have a big hand.

[tyler_cracker]

which guy is button? the really really pale white guy? (seat 4 i think)? which guy is sb? is it cherry corona?

i sort of think this is one of those situations where you have sort of a subconscious read on the guy. sometimes you want to make a move (or, iow, "[puff puff] well, n*gga, sometimes you gotta race, i donno."[**]). since we don't have that read, it's hard to say.

i agree with babar that the abc play is to just go ahead and fold.

[**] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DDZkgBdyFgc

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold preflop. If SB would have folded I would definately play though. But once it's not headsup I don't want a hand which is usually going to make middle or bottom pair when it hits. If we had something like 86s or JTo then I think calling would be fine as we have more big hand potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

I [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] position, perhaps too much in spots like this. I call this getting 5:1 and then act last on the flop (since youngish buy will c-bet), where most of the time I'm going to be able to make a very good decision based on what SB does.

[Aaron W.]

[ QUOTE ]
which guy is button? the really really pale white guy? (seat 4 i think)? which guy is sb? is it cherry corona?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cherry corona wasn't at the table at this time. The youngish guy I think was in seat 1 (or maybe it was seat 2), and the I think it was the pale guy who was SB. Maybe the youngish guy opened from the hijack instead.

[NIX]

I just fold preflop (but would play 86s). I fold the flop too. I don't like the idea of putting a lot of bets into the pot with what might be a weak draw if I'm already behind a bigger pair or am dominated. Plus, even if I hit a pair, Villains may have a reasonable redraw.

[HouseCalls]

[ QUOTE ]
SB is a guy who I feel like I should have a better read on than I really do. He's a pretty quiet person and seems a little loose, but has no other really distinguishing characteristics that I've noticed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd have to have a better read than this to do anything but fold here.

[Befolder]

Grunch.

This seems an easy flop fold. I even fold this pf, if suited, then I call, but I know how you feel Aaron.

You're in a pot that looks like a steal situation, and you're a good post flop player so you probably feel like you can certainly lose the least if you have to.

However, the fact that it's a steal situation actually makes it more likely that you're dominated than usual because the opener is more likely to have a have like J8s or 98s or a lower range of hands, which makes it less likely you're live.

Basicaly though, this isn't a hand we should be thrilled about going to battle with most of the time, even if we handle ourselves well post flop. We're asking for minimum gain and maximum loss usually.