When do pocket pairs stop being set mining?

[ahsfl]

Ok, now this is something that I've been looking at a lot because I'm playing a lot more hands recently. When do pockets go from being set mining to being playing the best hand. I used to limp with any non face pocket pair but I've been getting some effective use of playing 10s (from anywhere) and 9s (mid to late) strongly. Is this being too aggressive? Also at what point does set mining become unprofitable to call. Example, dealt pocket 4s utg+1, utg folds, I limp, 2 more players limp, button-1 raises to 5 times the BB, both blinds fold, action on me, is there enough dead money in the pot there to call even if I'm 90% sure the other limpers will fold? Should I even be limping with that small a pair that far up front? Any advice appreciated

[KurtSF]

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I used to limp with any non face pocket pair but I've been getting some effective use of playing 10s (from anywhere) and 9s (mid to late) strongly. Is this being too aggressive?

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No, this is not too aggressive.

In terms of specific advice, look up the rule of 5 and 10, and post specific hands you have questions about.

[ahsfl]

ok, and who's book would that be in?

[KurtSF]

linky

[Small Fry]

assuming your playing NL then it's about the implied odds. You need 7.5:1 as you're going to hit your set 1 in 8.5 tries. But there will be times you will lose when hitting your set, (most likely you'll get stacked) so the general accepted norm is for you to be able to get 10x the amount of the original wager. So, assuming you and the player that raised will still have about 10x that bet behind it might be acceptable to call. Although I would take into consideration that players specific style and likelyhood to pay me off.

So playing pp's early is about table aggressiveness and stack sizes. If there is small stacks and large preflop raising (in comparison to stack sizes - say 10% or greater) then you generally cannot get the value you need from set mining. Later positions when you have more preflop info still might be playable though. While the overall stack sizes might be short you might have greater immediate odds to make up for the implied shortfall.

With your example there is not enough dead money to call, you're getting about 2:1 on the call if the other limpers fold, unless the stacks behind are rather large. If they both call then it's much better. You're then getting about 4:1 on your call. Builds a bigger pot and possibly gets you more action if you should hit your set. (also increases your variance). Keep in mind it could still get raised (and reraised) again.

The basics of the 5/10 rule is you can call a bet thats 5% of the effective stacks but fold to a 10% bet. Inbetween is a judgement call.(Hope I got that right) Search this forum for it.

Good Luck

[ahsfl]

TY very much

[ahsfl]

I actually noticed, my original thought never got addressed, lol. Like I said before I can play 9s and 10s pretty well strong, can u safely do that with 8s? 7s? only late position?

[Small Fry]

Maybe...it's situational. Whats the table / other players like? Whats your image? Playing pairs 8 and lower agressively is not something I'd recommend doing consistently from early and possibly mid positions

Personally, my preferred play is to limp from up front, and I'll even call a raise (see previous explanation for raise amounts to call... [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]) I'll then evaluate my action based on the flop, players to act after me and before me, position of raiser (if raised) to myself and others, etc. So with medium pairs like 77-99 I might bet, check raise or check fold a flop, with lower pairs 66-22 I'm really looking for a set. How far I take a small pp will be board and opponent(s) dependent.