semi common spot

[Guruman]

this is early in the session, but villain hasn't been passive or maniacal as far as i can tell.

Poker Stars
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $0.10/$0.25
5 players
Converter

Stack sizes:
UTG: $22.45
CO: $5.40
Button: $21.05
SB: $27.35
Guruman: $25

Pre-flop: (5 players) Guruman is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
3 folds, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $0.75</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Guruman raises to $2</font>, SB calls.

Flop: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($4, 2 players)
SB checks, <font color="#cc0000">Guruman bets $2.5</font>, <font color="#cc0000">SB raises to $7</font>, Guruman ...


of course, now there's enough dead $$ in the pot that villain can try to move me off of my specific kind hand or some UI overs with a wide range if he so chooses.

Inflated pot, tough to hit board, villain checkraise.

I folded here, but that's mainly because I had no clue how to play the rest of the hand if I didnt fold - especially since we both had full stacks at this point.

If he's on a dead-money steal I could just call and try to check down, but given that he raised pf and called my reraise he'll have two overs a lot I think. If he's on a draw or worse pp or a split pair I miss value and induce bluffs by trying that.

reraising any amount would commit me, so the raise option would be to push - though that seems awfully reckless in this spot and facing this action.

Is this line of thinking correct?
thx

[monkover]

you are right: pushing is the worst option of all. Imo the most common mistake p2pers make when looking about hh about b vs b situation is that their estimates of villain´s hand range are way too wide.
this said I´m folding this too. The first time villain does this i just give him credit for a hand and next time I´ll worry about sb playing back at me.
The real problem here is that a raise obv sucks and the problem with a call is that villain is not going to slow down but you still don´t have any [censored] clue what is going on b/c you can´t really narrow his range down.

[vixticator]

[ QUOTE ]
I had no clue how to play the rest of the hand if I didnt fold - especially since we both had full stacks at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]You answered it already. If he made a move on you, it happens.

[BevillTheDevil]

id probably 3bet larger pf, and cbet larger on the flop. If you push here your not gettin called by anything you beat. Callin is probably just gona put us in a wierd spot on the turn where its likely a scare card will hit. Id just fold give him credit here. If he keeps up a high c/r frequency then ill start callin down a little lighter tho and start 3bet lighter on flop...

[Nick C]

People don't make moves in this spot as much as you're used to in limit. Or at least at NL25, they don't (probably they start to more often as you move higher).

Among other things, versus a near unknown, SB practically has to respect your preflop 3-bet, since preflop 3-bets tend to be strong hands at NL25. (The blind vs. blind nature of the hand makes this less true than it would be in an UTG vs. BB battle, but still . . .)

I think there is some chance Villain just has A9 or something, but I still think you made a good fold. The thing is, following such a big checkraise, your unknown Villain isn't too likely to slow down, and I think calling down (which very likely would involve playing for stacks) would be spewy. He probably has a hand like AQ or KQ or a set.

[Guruman]

thx nick.

villain flashed AK and it seemed like he played it very well because a hand like mine can't really call and this flop doenst hit much that I have. I guess if I see that alot then the best defense may be to check through the flop to control the pot size and get to a cheaper showdown, but that may suck too.

[Nick C]

Apparently Villain was proud of his play. And it probably is a profitable play, against you and most 2+2ers (er, assuming he was going to shut down if called), but I don't see much you can do about it while he's still unknown, because of the way NL25 plays.

Note, however, that he was sure enough he was bluffing to show off his hand. (I suppose that, after taking your fold into account, he could have figured his hand was best and he could have been letting you know he had you beat, but I doubt that's what was going on. It probably didn't even occur to him that he could easily have been bluffing with the best hand.)

In any event, I think there are a fair amount of NL25ers that Villain's postflop line would not be profitable against, because (1) their 3-betting range would be narrower than yours, (2) Villain might find it harder to push them off of TT, and (3) Villain very well might have spewed off a bunch of additional chips and possibly his whole stack, instead of giving up, if his flop checkraise got called. (I don't know. It doesn't seem like people checkraise the flop and then slow down very often at NL25, but then again it's possible that impression of mine is partly the result of the fact that the checkraiser so often actually has the goods.)

And, in any case, if #3 is true for Villain, then his play probably wouldn't be profitable against 2+2ers, either.