Slowplay?

HoneyBadger · #1 07-14-2007, 06:06 AM

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Hero calls, 5 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, BB calls, Hero calls.

Hero usually raises, but decided to limp this time because the voices said so.

Flop: (6.33 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Hmm gutter. Check and see, fold to a bet/raise sequence, probably call a bet/call sequence on implied odds. Hero gets to see the turn.

Turn: (4.66 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB raises, Hero calls ...

Hero checks, planning to check-raise the field. A little risky, but with this board a bet is very likely to be expected. Oh no, BB check raised! Hero only has the nut, so he trembles in fear and just calls like a donkey. Option two you can pick is, Hero smartly tries to keep the 3rd player in, without scaring off the 2nd, allowing him to raise the river as well. Thoughts?

WhiteKnight · #2 07-14-2007, 06:10 AM

I think I'm folding on the flop, there is a very good chance Button has an A and you're drawing to four outs. You're only getting 7.33 : 1 on the call, which isn't enough.

As played, I think a turn smooth-call is kosher, but I have this bad habit of trying to find good slow-plays.

HoneyBadger · #3 07-14-2007, 06:17 AM

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I think I'm folding on the flop, there is a very good chance Button has an A and you're drawing to four outs. You're only getting 7.33 : 1 on the call, which isn't enough.

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Meh, I need to make up for 3-4 SBs only, I'm likely winning at least 2 more BBs when I hit. It's thin, I agree, but it's fun. If I do hit my ten there's a good chance someone has two-pair, so I'll probably make at least 3 BB. That, and the whole psychological aspect of being sucked out on, yet again, by a 4 outer. edit: 8.33:1, right?

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As played, I think a turn smooth-call is kosher, but I have this bad habit of trying to find good slow-plays.

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I don't like slowplays either... but I had position on the c/r-er, else I'd just 3 bet, because no way am I going to c/r the river. I think it was too dangerous and I should've 3 bet. Pot was getting largish, so do all you can to win it; if you must, eliminate the 3rd player. The extra bet you gain from him will come from BB. That's what I thought afterwards. So I'm not sure it was any good...

WhiteKnight · #4 07-14-2007, 06:49 AM

You're definitely getting 8.33:1, sorry for not being able to count. And yes, sometimes it's fun to make thin calls "just because." Gamb00l!

Sometimes I get infatuated with the idea of keeping customers. You say that the slowplay is dangerous, but what card could come on the river that would really make us scared? It's rainbow all the way, and unpaired = your straight is almost always 100% good.

So I guess it becomes a matter of whether or not you'll get multiple bets off each of them on the river... raising now gets you an extra bet from each on the turn and then say 1.5 on the river (maybe an overcaller) = 3.5 total.

Slow-playing gets you nothing more on the turn, but if you opponents go bet/call or bet/raise on the river (similar to the turn), you'll likely get more then the 3.5 expectation from raising the turn. I'm starting to think this may be highly read dependent.

HoneyBadger · #5 07-14-2007, 07:03 AM

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You're definitely getting 8.33:1, sorry for not being able to count. And yes, sometimes it's fun to make thin calls "just because." Gamb00l!

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Yeah, and it's even somewhat profitable imo. Also keeps them on guard.
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Sometimes I get infatuated with the idea of keeping customers. You say that the slowplay is dangerous, but what card could come on the river that would really make us scared? It's rainbow all the way, and unpaired = your straight is almost always 100% good.

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He check raised the turn. I'd be afraid of an A, J, T or maybe a 5, plus I wouldn't want KJ to call and see a river Q, or K for that matter, but that's secondary.
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So I guess it becomes a matter of whether or not you'll get multiple bets off each of them on the river... raising now gets you an extra bet from each on the turn and then say 1.5 on the river (maybe an overcaller) = 3.5 total.

Slow-playing gets you nothing more on the turn, but if you opponents go bet/call or bet/raise on the river (similar to the turn), you'll likely get more then the 3.5 expectation from raising the turn. I'm starting to think this may be highly read dependent.

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Likely scenarios after the c/r imo:

Turn: I 3-bet, Button folds, BB calls. River: BB check, I bet, BB calls. Extra win: 2 BB

Turn: I 3-bet, Button folds, BB caps. River: BB bets, I raise, BB calls. Extra win: 4 BB

Turn: I call, Button calls. River: BB bets, I raise, Button fold, BB calls. Extra win: 3 BB

Turn: I call, Button calls. River: BB bets, I raise, Button calls, BB calls. Extra win: 5 BB

Turn: I call, Button calls. River: BB bets, I raise, Button folds, BB 3-bets, I cap, BB calls. Extra win: 5 BB. He must have really wished he had raised the flop with his pocket jacks.

Of course there's other possibilities, but calling seemed to get more bets in at the time.

WhiteKnight · #6 07-14-2007, 07:11 AM

Right, I didn't even think of the set possibility.
Given our discussion, I think raising the turn is correct. But I might be wrong because I suck at poker.

What's even more fun than making thin calls is raking in big pots as a result. Gratz :P

Hielko · #7 07-14-2007, 12:16 PM

I don't like to slowplay here. A huge part of the button's (calling!)range is probably AK, AQ, AJ, AJ, AA or JJ. All these hands have outs against your hands. AK and AQ have just 1,5 outs, but AJ and AT have 4 outs and AA and JJ have 10 outs. I just don't see a lot of hands that will call the turn that you really want to have in the pot and most of his range that will call 2-bets will call 3-bets.

Another thing is that you position on the river isn't great. The BB wil bet, you will raise and button folds a lot of hands. He could possibly fold more hands than on the turn because he doesn't have a gutshot or something like that anymore that looks good enough to call.

jstill · #8 07-14-2007, 12:27 PM

if u just call now and button just calls (pretty likely with even 2 pair and definitely just TP after ur cold call and the cr) the rivers gonna go BB bets, then u do what with the player behind u? cant just go for the overcall with the nuts rite. just 3bet the turn now and hope it gets capped somehow (when theyre idiots and 3bet AT AJ or JT). Folding out a potential chop from AQ AK KJ QJ ect isnt bad either if thats what button has and if he decides to call 2 bets back thats cool too.

fwiw i just fold preflop at most tables now utg

VERy IMPORTANT, WHITE KNIGHT or anyone else folding this gutshot esp closing the action ever getting 7:1 plays bad and is missing out on tons of value. after the other caller too esp theres a good chance one of them has at least top pair so ur implied odds are more than enough to make this call (even HU getting 7:1 its easily worth it when ur implied odds are less for sure). Plus theres no fd on the flop so u cant even make an argument on that basis.

edit: noticed u were utg in a 7 handed game, id raise but if u dont wanna i think ur better off just mucking still truthfully. not positive tho.

also just read more of the responses, ur turn 3bet isnt for "protection" no hand that can make a boat ever folds, ur 3bet is for value/ to make them make mistakes when they call with just small chop equity 4 outs or to make it more expensive for the 10 outter (which will often be less than a 10 outter when they have a set since the other player will have some of their outs with his pairs). u make them make more mistakes now I think than calling and trying to get more on the river (plus ur position on the cr'er to trap the field on the river is poor as already stated)

also i think im done posting forever, 3101 looks cool and seems like more than enough posts/ time wasted of my life doesnt it?

haha probably wont happen im addicted to poker and this forum and crack

Hielko · #9 07-14-2007, 12:32 PM

My default is to fold KQo UTG+1,+2 and +3 at a 10-handed table with decent players.

BigBadBabar · #10 07-14-2007, 02:33 PM

i raise pf
i 3bet the turn

i think your scenarios are overoptimistic on the river that both people pay you off max bets

the pot is decent sized and you have the nuts. someone could have a set or two pair. they're coming along either way. make them pay now. coldcalling here would scream "broadway" to me if i were at the table.