50/100 Badugi hand at WSOP

*TT* · #1 06-29-2007, 07:23 PM

I'm not positive if the cards are correct, but its close enough to discuss the river play.

guy to my right open limps, I raise with 2362 - 3 suits, two hearts, button calls only after realizing after he put in one bet that it was raised, villain calls.

I drop the duce and get a 3 diamonds. villain drops a card, button drops two. I need a club. Checks to me I bet, both call.

I drop the three and get a 6 diamonds. Villain drops one and looks frustrated, button draws 2!!!!! I love the button!

check to me, I bet, Button drops out, villain calls.

As expected villain draws one. I draw one and get the 5 diamonds giving me a 235 3 card badugi. Villain checks, and I decide to <u>check behind</u>. Anyone value bet this river, and why? I can see both options being good, I felt my decision was very close.

Phat Mack · #2 06-30-2007, 02:32 AM

I can't see villian going for a check-raise here if he had hit something. You've seen a bunch of babies--you may get a call from a worse hand. You might even get a better hand to drop, but I'm a little doubtful of that. I'd bet the end, but I'm not suggesting that it's correct. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

*TT* · #3 06-30-2007, 07:48 AM

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I can't see villian going for a check-raise here if he had hit something.

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Agreed. I also doubt highly based on the villain's expressions that he hit, and if he hit it was something like a K high Badugi.

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You've seen a bunch of babies--you may get a call from a worse hand.

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I doubt that will happen.

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You might even get a better hand to drop, but I'm a little doubtful of that.

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This is the crux of the thread. Do we want to show the 5 high, or do we want to induce a fold. Since a value bet will likely show no real value other than meta, what is the best option?

2461Badugi · #4 06-30-2007, 09:54 AM

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This is the crux of the thread. Do we want to show the 5 high, or do we want to induce a fold. Since a value bet will likely show no real value other than meta, what is the best option?

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I guess you might get 531 or 521 to fold, but you've seen two 2s and two 3s and he'd have to have the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I think you played it perfectly.

*TT* · #5 06-30-2007, 04:15 PM

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This is the crux of the thread. Do we want to show the 5 high, or do we want to induce a fold. Since a value bet will likely show no real value other than meta, what is the best option?

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I guess you might get 531 or 521 to fold, but you've seen two 2s and two 3s and he'd have to have the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. I think you played it perfectly.

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to you see any meta value in betting?

2461Badugi · #6 07-01-2007, 01:26 AM

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do you see any meta value in betting?

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Not really. There's a natural sharp drop in what you can pay off with 1:1 in a straightforward Badugi game, so it's hard to move people much looser. I like to go the other direction and free-showdown a lot of paint badugis unless I'm pretty confident they have a three-card hand they'll pay with.

press.gang · #7 07-02-2007, 07:18 AM

it's funny, i would call w/ nearly every hand that has you beat and fold every hand that you beat. i think my average calling range in a spot like this is almost exactly 234+.

i would vb A24+ here though.

fwiw, i don't see much meta value in betting here either. maybe it's a joke that you're a nit (i'm not sure), but if you are, the bet here (if we're applying meta) is gonna mean that you're gonna have to vb the river light in the future (most badugis [including Ks] you pat and a lot of 125s+ you draw) which you may or may not be comfortable doing.

also, button's call w/ a 2 card draw (i assume acedeuce) after the second draw is probably correct (at worst slightly -ev) in this situation. i've had a little to drink so i'm not sure, but i don't think it's terrible.

*TT* · #8 07-02-2007, 02:16 PM

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maybe it's a joke that you're a nit (i'm not sure), but if you are, the bet here (if we're applying meta) is gonna mean that you're gonna have to vb the river light in the future (most badugis [including Ks] you pat and a lot of 125s+ you draw) which you may or may not be comfortable doing.

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I am in no way near a nit, I have no idea where you got that from. for what its worth, I bet lightly on the river quite often, and will often bet with weak hands as well, provided there is a slim amount of value in the long run. In this situation I dont see any $ value from betting, but i do see some meta value - hence the thread. Its very close in my eyes, most people seem to agree with a check behind, but a few players I have spoken with thinks a bet is slightly better due to meta considerations.

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also, button's call w/ a 2 card draw (i assume acedeuce) after the second draw is probably correct (at worst slightly -ev) in this situation. i've had a little to drink so i'm not sure, but i don't think it's terrible.

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From both empirical evidence as well as from I think his call is not good. I haven't done the calculations yet for a 2 card draw, but for a one card draw with 6 outs to a median badugi (A23x where x=9 or less) is 3.3:1 against improving with 2 draws remaining. Maybe someone will step up to the play to give us an analysis?

2461Badugi · #9 07-02-2007, 06:04 PM

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I dont see any $ value from betting, but i do see some meta value - hence the thread. Its very close in my eyes, most people seem to agree with a check behind, but a few players I have spoken with thinks a bet is slightly better due to meta considerations.

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Do you mind explainng where you see that meta value coming from? I don't get it.

*TT* · #10 07-03-2007, 03:36 AM

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I dont see any $ value from betting, but i do see some meta value - hence the thread. Its very close in my eyes, most people seem to agree with a check behind, but a few players I have spoken with thinks a bet is slightly better due to meta considerations.

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Do you mind explainng where you see that meta value coming from? I don't get it.

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Betting allows me to keep the value of my hand hidden. It also allows me to bet weak hands such as clean K or Q Badugi's for value in the future (which i would have done anyway) with hopes that he might look me up with a 6 high 3-card. It fosters an environment of frustration with the opponent, knowing that I am capable of a multi-street semi-bluff in position which means its going to cost him to look me up when he isn't sure in the future.

And then there are all the great mental plays that can come from him calling too - even though its unlikely unless he has a weak Badugi.