AK 5-Way, overcards->TPTK on coordinated board

Mister Bloom · #1 07-06-2007, 09:23 AM

Button is 50/8/1.9; BB is 53/2/0.5
No specific reads available.

PokerStars 0.10/0.20 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. UTG posts a blind of $0.10. CO posts a blind of $0.15.
UTG (poster) checks, 1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG folds.

Flop: (12 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO folds.

Do I ever lead this flop? If not, C/C or C/F?

Turn: (8 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

I pretty much resigned to just calling down if BB didn't wake-up...

River: (11 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, Button bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB
Main Pot: 14 BB, between BB, Hero and Button.

KitCloudkicker · #2 07-06-2007, 09:34 AM

b/f the turn.

if it gets checked thru by a T then its a disaster. you can fold if you get raised because unless the raiser is a aggro monkey, a turn raise of your donk bet = you're crushed.

your line is ok if you held the Ah, but even then id prefer a b/c on the turn.

JerBear77 · #3 07-06-2007, 09:44 AM

Always lead the flop here, even though its a multiway pot, you have to try to weed out anyone if possible. Then you reevaluate from there.

Turn card is a tough one to spark up with, yea you made your hand but someone could very well have a flush also based on the flop action. I can't get excited that I hit the K with the flush being made also. It would seriously suck to get raised here as I can't find a fold with your TPTK. If you had the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , that would lead me toward a donkbet as I feel "ok" if i get raised.

On the river tho, I find a raise as you have a decent chance that you beat the Button and BB ....button certainly can have AT or an outkicked Kx, BB seems to have a middle pair or some sort and called down out of despiration. If either villian turns over something different then make a note of it.

KitCloudkicker · #4 07-06-2007, 09:48 AM

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Always lead the flop here, even though its a multiway pot, you have to try to weed out anyone if possible. Then you reevaluate from there.

Turn card is a tough one to spark up with, yea you made your hand but someone could very well have a flush also based on the flop action.

On the river tho, I might find a raise here as Button and BB have a good chance that there hands u have beat, button certainly can have Kx here and be outkicked, BB seems to have a middle pair or some sort and called down out of despiration, if either villian turns over something different then make a note of it.

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if you want to raise when you hit the Kh, why would you raise the river and not the turn? that doesnt make any sense to me.

JerBear77 · #5 07-06-2007, 09:57 AM

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Always lead the flop here, even though its a multiway pot, you have to try to weed out anyone if possible. Then you reevaluate from there.

Turn card is a tough one to spark up with, yea you made your hand but someone could very well have a flush also based on the flop action.

On the river tho, I might find a raise here as Button and BB have a good chance that there hands u have beat, button certainly can have Kx here and be outkicked, BB seems to have a middle pair or some sort and called down out of despiration, if either villian turns over something different then make a note of it.

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if you want to raise when you hit the Kh, why would you raise the river and not the turn? that doesnt make any sense to me.

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I edited my old post, but basically the river action hints at the fact that BB is not that strong and we haven't challenged the PFR with his AT that didn't improve. Unless PFR had a FD that came in, I think we can value Raise here. We can't raise the turn as we don't have a Redraw to the NutFlush, we want to keep the pot small here and I don't see a fold here if we get raised OOP.

KitCloudkicker · #6 07-06-2007, 10:00 AM

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Always lead the flop here, even though its a multiway pot, you have to try to weed out anyone if possible. Then you reevaluate from there.

Turn card is a tough one to spark up with, yea you made your hand but someone could very well have a flush also based on the flop action.

On the river tho, I might find a raise here as Button and BB have a good chance that there hands u have beat, button certainly can have Kx here and be outkicked, BB seems to have a middle pair or some sort and called down out of despiration, if either villian turns over something different then make a note of it.

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if you want to raise when you hit the Kh, why would you raise the river and not the turn? that doesnt make any sense to me.

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I edited my old post, but basically the river action hints at the fact that BB is not that strong and we haven't challenged the PFR with his AT that didn't improve. Unless PFR had a FD that came in, I think we can value Raise here. We can't raise the turn as we don't have a Redraw to the NutFlush, we want to keep the pot small here and I don't see a fold here if we get raised OOP.

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1st off, many opponents here wont fire the river unless they have AK beat, after two people call the turn. i know i usually wouldnt fire with AT on the river.

second, if we raise the river we have a very tough decision if we get 3 bet.

third, i dont understand what you mean by "keeping the pot small," this isn't no limit. please explain.

JerBear77 · #7 07-06-2007, 10:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
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Always lead the flop here, even though its a multiway pot, you have to try to weed out anyone if possible. Then you reevaluate from there.

Turn card is a tough one to spark up with, yea you made your hand but someone could very well have a flush also based on the flop action.

On the river tho, I might find a raise here as Button and BB have a good chance that there hands u have beat, button certainly can have Kx here and be outkicked, BB seems to have a middle pair or some sort and called down out of despiration, if either villian turns over something different then make a note of it.

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if you want to raise when you hit the Kh, why would you raise the river and not the turn? that doesnt make any sense to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I edited my old post, but basically the river action hints at the fact that BB is not that strong and we haven't challenged the PFR with his AT that didn't improve. Unless PFR had a FD that came in, I think we can value Raise here. We can't raise the turn as we don't have a Redraw to the NutFlush, we want to keep the pot small here and I don't see a fold here if we get raised OOP.

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1st off, many opponents here wont fire the river unless they have AK beat, after two people call the turn. i know i usually wouldnt fire with AT on the river.

second, if we raise the river we have a very tough decision if we get 3 bet.

third, i dont understand what you mean by "keeping the pot small," this isn't no limit. please explain.

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In this spot, I don't want to tip off the Tx that the K helped me (assuming that Button or BB has the T). For that reason, I prefer not raising when the K hits as I don't want to give the T a chance to slow down or potentially get out of the hand. Id rather give him another chance to fire another bet in, or perhaps call my eventual river bet. The turn card tho also makes a FD, so for that reason also I would hate to get raised by EITHER a flush, or a KQ that is getting out of control. Obviously we would like the Kx to raise us but because we don't have the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] I don't have a redraw against the made flush, which is the reason for my passive Turn play. Once what im assuming is a Tx AND a weak BB player calls, there is a chance that im getting an extra bet with the River raise. If we get 3 bet then I guessed wrong and i pay the consequences, but i think the risk is worth the reward here.

bravos1 · #8 07-06-2007, 10:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Always lead the flop here , even though its a multiway pot, you have to try to weed out anyone if possible. Then you reevaluate from there.

Turn card is a tough one to spark up with, yea you made your hand but someone could very well have a flush also based on the flop action. I can't get excited that I hit the K with the flush being made also. It would seriously suck to get raised here as I can't find a fold with your TPTK. If you had the A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] , that would lead me toward a donkbet as I feel "ok" if i get raised.

On the river tho, I find a raise as you have a decent chance that you beat the Button and BB ....button certainly can have AT or an outkicked Kx, BB seems to have a middle pair or some sort and called down out of despiration. If either villian turns over something different then make a note of it.

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Ugh.. I hardly ever lead the flop here (read, basically never). Against 4 others on a very draw heavy board, you are not going to "weed out" enough people to make a bet worth while. Always leading the flop here is a leak.

Just because you raise pre-flop does not mean you are required to or even should bet the flop.

JerBear77 · #9 07-06-2007, 11:01 AM

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Ugh.. I hardly ever lead the flop here (read, basically never). Against 4 others on a very draw heavy board, you are not going to "weed out" enough people to make a bet worth while. Always leading the flop here is a leak.
Just because you raise pre-flop does not mean you are required to or even should bet the flop.

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Once i take the lead I like to keep it and see what develops. If i get raised OOP then at least i have a feel for where I am. Possibly a small leak but that's "how I roll" [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

EGO · #10 07-06-2007, 11:46 AM

*grunch*

No, I never lead this flop. You are very unlikely to have the best hand at this point, and have little chance of taking the pot down with a bet. If you felt that you'd take the pot down at least once in thirteen tries, then a semi-bluff would be OK.

I will often just fold whiffed overcards. You only have a weak bdsd to help your weak overcard draw out. However, this pot is just big enough for me to take one off.

Here's one of the rare times I like a turn donk. Lead out, and probably fold to a raise from loose/passive button. Check-raising is out, since it potentially commits three big bets on the turn. A check-call here means you _don't_ have the flush, which even bad players will be somewhat worried about. Getting raised on this board, by these players will likely mean you are drawing very thin, and can probably fold even getting 10-1. Not getting raised probably means your hand has some value.

After betting the turn and getting called in a couple of spots, I probably lead the river again.