Can the Sklansky-Chubukov Rankings be extended to other positions?

anteatereater · #1 09-14-2006, 04:22 PM

In the NLHTAP "Sklansky-Chubukov Rankings" chapter it is suggested that if it's folded to you on the button, you can divide the S-C number by two and act accordingly. What if it's folded to me in the cutoff (or hijack)? Can I divide by three (or four) and profitably move all-in if the resulting number is greater than my stack size? For example, I am dealt A9o in the hijack seat with a $20 stack in a $1/$2 NL cash game. It's folded to me. Since my S-C number is 81.7 and there are four players left to act, and 81.7 divided by 4 is greater than my stack size ($20), does this mean it is wrong for me to ever fold? How about JJ utg? If nine players are left to act, I have JJ. The S-C number/9 is around $35. If all-in or fold are my only options, is $35 my "effective s-c number"?

Thanks

Unknown Soldier · #2 09-14-2006, 04:30 PM

I personally think it is, the reason why you divide by 2 is that you're twice as likely to get called, so if there are 4 players left to act then you are 4 times as likely to get called, so divide by 4. That was my interpretation anyway. However it does pose an interesting question, as the further you are away from the bb the more likely it is you get called by 2 or more players. So in my opinion when it is a close call, the further you are away the better it is to fold.

Unknown Soldier · #3 09-14-2006, 05:01 PM

In regards to this:

[ QUOTE ]
I am dealt A9o in the hijack seat with a $20 stack in a $1/$2 NL cash game. It's folded to me. Since my S-C number is 81.7 and there are four players left to act, and 81.7 divided by 4 is greater than my stack size ($20), does this mean it is wrong for me to ever fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is that yes it is wrong for you to fold, if going all-in has a higher EV then folding then it must be incorrect to fold.

Also, I think it's important to remember (i think I'm correct in saying this) that the SC hand rankings are a worst case scenarios, in the respect that the opponent knows what you have and will only call you with a better hand. So for example someone might call your all-in bet w/ A9o w/ KQ making you the slight favourite.

anteatereater · #4 09-14-2006, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Also, I think it's important to remember (i think I'm correct in saying this) that the SC hand rankings are a worst case scenarios, in the respect that the opponent knows what you have and will only call you with a better hand. So for example someone might call your all-in bet w/ A9o w/ KQ making you the slight favourite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. And they might fold a small pair or even AT or AJ, which makes that move-in even more +EV.

anteatereater · #5 09-14-2006, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I personally think it is, the reason why you divide by 2 is that you're twice as likely to get called, so if there are 4 players left to act then you are 4 times as likely to get called, so divide by 4. That was my interpretation anyway. However it does pose an interesting question, as the further you are away from the bb the more likely it is you get called by 2 or more players. So in my opinion when it is a close call, the further you are away the better it is to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

But should the prospect of getting called by 2 or more players be a deterrent?

If I move in with AQ and get called by AJ, then I definitely would prefer that anyone else holding any pair would fold. But I would prefer that even if the AJ had folded.

If I move in with AQ and get called by someone with a pair, I would still want an AJ to overcall.

If I move in with 99 and get called by AA, I would still want JJ to overcall.

If I move in with 99 and get called by AQ, do I want KJ to overcall? I don't know. The amount of preflop dead money in the pot is a factor. Although it's slightly better to be 55% to double up than it is to be 34% to triple up, there will be times when one opponent bets the other one off his hand, increasing my pot equity. For example, the flop might come J87 and the KJ bets the AQ out of the pot. Now I might make a straight when the AQ would have made a running flush, or I might make a running flush when the AQ would have made a higher one if he was still around. Or the final board might be J879T and I split with one player instead of 2.

If I move in with a hand like JJ and get called by AK and overcalled by 88, the 88 will occasionally bet the AK off his hand on the flop or turn. Even if the AK hits the flop (making me a huge dog), I still want him to bet the 88 out of the pot. I might hit my set, but still lose to the 88s running straight or flush.

Unknown Soldier · #6 09-14-2006, 05:40 PM

Yes, exactly so it is probably always correct to go all-in even if the SC rankings show that you have a slight -EV.

Now if only I could remember all of the rankings... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

anteatereater · #7 09-14-2006, 06:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, exactly so it is probably always correct to go all-in even if the SC rankings show that you have a slight -EV.

Now if only I could remember all of the rankings... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I have a printout I use while playing. I have been experimenting playing 4 tables and buying in for the minimum of $20 at NL $1/$2 (some sites have a $40 minbuy). I still think I fold too much. That's why I am trying to determine the minimum stack I can fold certain hands with first to enter with x numbers of players remaining.

I still find myself open folding AQ from early position with a $17 or bigger stack. But AQ's s-c number divided 9 is about $21. I trying to figure out if I am folding this hand too often.

AQ will never get a dominating hand to fold and won't get many calls from dominated hands. 99 has about the same s-c number as AQ, but it can sometimes get called by smaller pairs and also might get TT to fold.

I guess that's robust vs vulnerable like the book talked about.

I have found that a lot of opponents seem to always put me on AK when I move in and will call with any pair. That's nice when I have a bigger pair and no disaster if I have overcards.

And the fish will always put me on a hand that doesn't dominate them. If they have AJ, they'll put me on TT and call. But if they have 66, they'll put me on AK and call.

I get called by a lot of hands that dominate no hand I could possibly move-in with in that situation.

And if I get caught moving in from the sb or button with say Q7s for $12, and later I am reraising someone all-in for $30, some players won't realize how different the two situations are and call with hands they shouldn't, because they saw my Q7s push.

Unknown Soldier · #8 09-14-2006, 06:33 PM

Yes, well I guess that's where table image comes into it. If they see you going all-in with Q7s then their calling requirments will be lower and you can take advantage of that. You bring up an interesting idea about the AQ. I'll have to read robust section again. however, the general idea is that it doesn't matter if you get calls that dominate your hand if you go by the SC rankings you will still make a profit. So I would play AQ, if everyone folds you pick up the blinds, that's one of the aspects the SC rankings take into consideration.

Knockwurst · #9 09-15-2006, 09:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In the NLHTAP "Sklansky-Chubukov Rankings" chapter it is suggested that if it's folded to you on the button, you can divide the S-C number by two and act accordingly. What if it's folded to me in the cutoff (or hijack)? Can I divide by three (or four) and profitably move all-in if the resulting number is greater than my stack size? For example, I am dealt A9o in the hijack seat with a $20 stack in a $1/$2 NL cash game. It's folded to me. Since my S-C number is 81.7 and there are four players left to act, and 81.7 divided by 4 is greater than my stack size ($20), does this mean it is wrong for me to ever fold? How about JJ utg? If nine players are left to act, I have JJ. The S-C number/9 is around $35. If all-in or fold are my only options, is $35 my "effective s-c number"?

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

You raise some very good points, and in your later posts in this thread as well. It would be interesting to hear from the author as to this question.

A similar question I had is the following:

Can S-C be used to calculate the +EV hands for a re-steal?

For instance, if the small blind,who has you covered bets 3-4 times your big blind, can one use S-C to determine the minimum hand requirements for an all-in resteal?

Leviathan101 · #10 09-16-2006, 05:52 PM

I'm sure it could indeed be used for that, but the issue is they aren't holding any two cards if they raised (maybe. Depends if they steal with any two I guess.) If you assume they don't have any two, then you need to assign a range of hands and once you do that it's simply a normal EV calculation to figure out if it's profitable. I'd assume the hands you need to resteal would have to be stronger, since there is a legimate chance they have a real hand.