Regarding Hellmuth (and others like him)

[Aleo]

This post is not for people who know anything about poker. So if you find yourself reading this and saying "yeah, so?" then I'm probably not addressing this to you.

This post is about some people jumping on the Hellmuth bandwagon as though he is the greatest player the world has ever known, and others arguing against this as though the mere thought is an affront to humanity.

The thing is, this is not an argument that has eternally raged. A few years ago, it decidedly a non-argument. Hellmuth's career had taken a dive and many thought that after a few winless years, he wasn't ever coming back. I remember after his excellent and dedicated commentary on the final table of the 2004 WSOP thinking to myself - now that Hellmuth has lost his tourney game, he should really think about a gig like this full time. He really was great covering that WSOP final table, and it was hard not to come away liking him. Still, pretty much everyone thought his tourney career had fizzled.

The point is, it obviously hadn't and I was stupid for thinking it had. These are poker tournaments we are talking about after all. Sometimes you run bad for a long time. Now, everyone is arguing about Phil's greatness when the real news is just that he still has a killer tourney game. Nobody disputes this now and people forget the opinions they once held.

Now, take this sort of reasoning to many of the other currently slumping or currently hot players out there. We have guys like Cloutier who people love to ridicule, and other guys like Cunningham who are revered as gods. But just a little reflection should reveal that this just isn't accurate. Now I'm not sure Cloutier will ever make another surge but it sure wouldn't surprise me if he won a couple events some year either. He clearly has the history to show he can play. Geez, he won a bracelet just two years ago. Now everyone writes him off as a craps playing fool. Wake up people. He's no different than Hellmuth.

Well, maybe he's a little different. After all, Hellmuth does have the most bracelets, and hot and cold streaks aside, that means something. Not much, but yeah, something. Still, you get my point. The reason Hellmuth seems to cash in everything he plays is because right now that's how things are rolling. Three years ago that's not how things were rolling.

Geez, even Hellmuth deludes himself with this kind of results oriented thinking, saying things like "I'm playing the best poker of my life" whenever he's winning. Get real, he's Hellmuth, he's good enough to cash more than his fair share, but that's all there is to it. He's running really hot right now and it looks amplified.

So I'm not saying BOO Hellmuth, and I'm not saying YAAY Hellmuth either. I'm just saying give the guy his proper due respect now and nothing more, but also give him his proper due respect in three years (or whenever) when he slumps again. Similarly, do the same for guys like TJ or Ivey or Seidel or Forrest or whoever.

The argument about whether Phil is the greatest is stupid. he's really good. So are lots of other guys who we aren't anywhere near having the same argument about. Guys who others probably WERE having this silly argument about ten years ago, and guys who we might again have this silly argument about in another three years.

Now, is this news to anybody? Cause it seems like it must be.

[McCutter]

[ QUOTE ]
This post is not for people who know anything about poker. So if you find yourself reading this and saying "yeah, so?" then I'm probably not addressing this to you.

This post is about some people jumping on the Hellmuth bandwagon as though he is the greatest player the world has ever known, and others arguing against this as though the mere thought is an affront to humanity.

The thing is, this is not an argument that has eternally raged. A few years ago, it decidedly a non-argument. Hellmuth's career had taken a dive and many thought that after a few winless years, he wasn't ever coming back. I remember after his excellent and dedicated commentary on the final table of the 2004 WSOP thinking to myself - now that Hellmuth has lost his tourney game, he should really think about a gig like this full time. He really was great covering that WSOP final table, and it was hard not to come away liking him. Still, pretty much everyone thought his tourney career had fizzled.

The point is, it obviously hadn't and I was stupid for thinking it had. These are poker tournaments we are talking about after all. Sometimes you run bad for a long time. Now, everyone is arguing about Phil's greatness when the real news is just that he still has a killer tourney game. Nobody disputes this now and people forget the opinions they once held.

Now, take this sort of reasoning to many of the other currently slumping or currently hot players out there. We have guys like Cloutier who people love to ridicule, and other guys like Cunningham who are revered as gods. But just a little reflection should reveal that this just isn't accurate. Now I'm not sure Cloutier will ever make another surge but it sure wouldn't surprise me if he won a couple events some year either. He clearly has the history to show he can play. Geez, he won a bracelet just two years ago. Now everyone writes him off as a craps playing fool. Wake up people. He's no different than Hellmuth.

Well, maybe he's a little different. After all, Hellmuth does have the most bracelets, and hot and cold streaks aside, that means something. Not much, but yeah, something. Still, you get my point. The reason Hellmuth seems to cash in everything he plays is because right now that's how things are rolling. Three years ago that's not how things were rolling.

Geez, even Hellmuth deludes himself with this kind of results oriented thinking, saying things like "I'm playing the best poker of my life" whenever he's winning. Get real, he's Hellmuth, he's good enough to cash more than his fair share, but that's all there is to it. He's running really hot right now and it looks amplified.

So I'm not saying BOO Hellmuth, and I'm not saying YAAY Hellmuth either. I'm just saying give the guy his proper due respect now and nothing more, but also give him his proper due respect in three years (or whenever) when he slumps again. Similarly, do the same for guys like TJ or Ivey or Seidel or Forrest or whoever.

The argument about whether Phil is the greatest is stupid. he's really good. So are lots of other guys who we aren't anywhere near having the same argument about. Guys who others probably WERE having this silly argument about ten years ago, and guys who we might again have this silly argument about in another three years.

Now, is this news to anybody? Cause it seems like it must be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you make a lot of thoughtful points in your post, but I question one huge aspect of your premise, that Hellmuth was slumping at the time of the 2004 WSOP and that people were considering his tourney career to be in bad shape.

Here are Hellmuth's results from the 2004 and 2003 WSOP

WSOP 2004:
5 cashes, including a 6th and a 7th

WSOP 2003:
6 cashes, including 2 1sts, a 3rd, a 6th, a 12th (horse) and 27th in the Main Event.

In late 2003, Hellmuth also got 3rd in the WPT finals and 3rd at the USPC main event.

I would say his results have always been fairly strong and that your premise about Hellmuth circa-2004 "having lost his tournament game" doesnt really make sense

[Aleo]

Ok sure, in retrospect, his results look pretty good, but make no mistake, people were not having anything like the same conversations then that they are having today.

It was post Moneymaker. The boom started and WPT was on the rise. Hellmuth made a few final tables but he basically suffered a few miserable final table beats and added to that some bad plays and stayed winless for a long time. It's funny how many final tables you can make and not get any respect when you don't have the wins. And it got to him too. It's a big part of his current reputation actually -all the frustration we saw back then.

And actually, this ties right in to what I'm saying. There are a lot of guys today making lots of final tables and lots of cashes who are in the same boat. They aren't getting bracelets and nobody notices them. In fact, people love to talk about how they are all actually broke degens. I don't know how many times back then it was insinuated that Hellmuth was a net loser.

People are cuckoo for bracelets. Look at poor TJ for example. Two main event 2nds. Dominating once in a huge pot. How would we view him today if he had 2 main event wins. Or Dewey Tomko? How would we view Phil if he never picked up number 10 and 11?

[jdblacknines]

I do remember people talking about poker having passed Phil by....and bottom line, he did have a winless streak up until the 05 heads up title. He even talked about it after winning.

[Yo Adrians!]

Surprisingly enough, this thread has some actual promise. Very good post, OP.

These guys run hot and cold - just another reminder that even if a pro like Ivey, Hellmuth, etc., have a couple 'bad' years, they still probably are in the upper echelon of poker talent out there.

Very, very well-thought out here. I enjoyed the read.

[chicken10der]

how did i know mccutter would be the first reply to this thread before i even opened it??!! psychic!!

[youcanhaveitall]

[ QUOTE ]
how did i know mccutter would be the first reply to this thread before i even opened it??!! psychic!!

[/ QUOTE ]

[NCAces]

Don't discount that many of us dislike Phil because of his arrogance and lack of class. I for one am willing to give him props for his tourny game. Kind of hard to argue with his results. That doesn't mean he is any less a tool for his absolute insecurity that results in him acting liking a pompous fool. If you are really good at something you don't have to go around telling everyone that fact. So long as he behaves as he has here, I will never respect him as a poker player, his skills nothwithstanding.

NCAces

[Ditch Digger]

Enough with the Hellmuth threads. He's running well, he's a pompous arse sometimes, he draws a crowd, etc. We get it. Next person to start a Phil thread should be insta banned.