Vegans...

[Vagos]

Something I've been wondering lately, as I know/have met an increasingly number of people who are or have become vegans. Or even just vegetarians who are strongly against the killing of animals in way, shape or form. I have no problem with these people's moral compass. So long as they're not forcing anything on anyone else, the personal moral code of not wanting to kill animals seems like a noble one.

The thing I'm wondering is that how come 9 times out of 10, this doesn't transfer over to abortion? If killing a sewer rat is considered to be immoral by these people, surely killing a human fetus is as well? Again, this person doesn't have to force a pro-life view on other people, I'm just referring to personal morality. How can someone be a vegan who finds it morally reprehensible to kill animals of any kind, but on the same token have no moral qualms whatsoever with abortion?

And sorry if this was already a thread, I don't visit SMP very often.

[vhawk01]

I don't really see how the two are related. Are you trying to make the argument that a fetus is more 'sentient' or capable of suffering than a pig? Probably not the case.

There are several different arguments to be made with regards to abortion. Only a very limited number of them (and really, I don't know anyone who really espouses these) would fit into your paradigm here. I think abortion is accept for at least two reasons, and one of them is the Thomson thought experiment. This primarily covers pregnancies that were the result of rape, but either way, it has nothing to do with whether the fetus is alive or not.

Think about it, do these vegans and vegetarians think it is immoral to kill ANY living thing? Like flies and plants and grass? Or just living things that have a certain amount of self-awareness and capability to suffer?

[Vagos]

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There are several different arguments to be made with regards to abortion. Only a very limited number of them (and really, I don't know anyone who really espouses these) would fit into your paradigm here. I think abortion is accept for at least two reasons, and one of them is the Thomson thought experiment. This primarily covers pregnancies that were the result of rape, but either way, it has nothing to do with whether the fetus is alive or not.

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Wait, so for most people, abortion doesn't come down to whether or not the fetus is alive? It's just about the "whether or not it can feel pain" argument? I gotta say, if that's what most people think about when considering abortion, that is wild. It's ok to kill a human so long as it doesn't know (or feel) it's being killed?

I don't know, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I always thought the debate about "when life begins" was a huge part of the abortion debate.

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Think about it, do these vegans and vegetarians think it is immoral to kill ANY living thing? Like flies and plants and grass? Or just living things that have a certain amount of self-awareness and capability to suffer?

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So under that rationale, it's ok to kill a coma victim, even if they have, say, an 80% shot of coming out of the coma in 9 months (as a fetus has of being born into a human that can think, feel pain, etc)

[Dan.]

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Wait, so for most people, abortion doesn't come down to whether or not the fetus is alive? It's just about the "whether or not it can feel pain" argument?

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I don't want to speak for most people, but as a vegan and a pro-choicer I feel directly related to the topic. For me, abortion is nothing about whether or not the fetus is alive and entirely about whether or not the woman has rights and control over her body. And in my case, I feel that when the rights of an existing person conflict with those of a potential person the existing person's rights ought to triumph.

[New001]

I'm a vegetarian, I don't kill animals (I even escort bugs out of the house when I find them), and if I happened to be a woman I don't know if I'd ever be able to do an abortion. Still, I think they should be allowed.

Though, there's no connection between killing animals for food or sport and abortions.

[vhawk01]

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There are several different arguments to be made with regards to abortion. Only a very limited number of them (and really, I don't know anyone who really espouses these) would fit into your paradigm here. I think abortion is accept for at least two reasons, and one of them is the Thomson thought experiment. This primarily covers pregnancies that were the result of rape, but either way, it has nothing to do with whether the fetus is alive or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, so for most people, abortion doesn't come down to whether or not the fetus is alive? It's just about the "whether or not it can feel pain" argument? I gotta say, if that's what most people think about when considering abortion, that is wild. It's ok to kill a human so long as it doesn't know (or feel) it's being killed?

I don't know, perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but I always thought the debate about "when life begins" was a huge part of the abortion debate.

[ QUOTE ]
Think about it, do these vegans and vegetarians think it is immoral to kill ANY living thing? Like flies and plants and grass? Or just living things that have a certain amount of self-awareness and capability to suffer?

[/ QUOTE ]

So under that rationale, it's ok to kill a coma victim, even if they have, say, an 80% shot of coming out of the coma in 9 months (as a fetus has of being born into a human that can think, feel pain, etc)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there isn't anyone in the world who wouldn't agree that a fetus is alive. Of course its alive. I'll wait for you to clarify some terms before we continue this, as we often have semantical problems that stall out discussion.

[Vagos]

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Wait, so for most people, abortion doesn't come down to whether or not the fetus is alive? It's just about the "whether or not it can feel pain" argument?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to speak for most people, but as a vegan and a pro-choicer I feel directly related to the topic. For me, abortion is nothing about whether or not the fetus is alive and entirely about whether or not the woman has rights and control over her body. And in my case, I feel that when the rights of an existing person conflict with those of a potential person the existing person's rights ought to triumph.

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Generally, this is how I feel. I would never interfere with a woman's right to get an abortion. I see this as pretty much the same way I don't think you (as a vegan) would interfere with my right to eat meat. It's about personal moral beliefs, that you live by or think about yourself, but don't impose on other people.

You're a vegan but you support a woman's right to choose, that's fine. Just like you support my right to eat meat. But do you have the same personal feelings or moral issues with someone who eats/produces/slaughters meat as you do with someone who gets/performs an abortion?

[vhawk01]

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Wait, so for most people, abortion doesn't come down to whether or not the fetus is alive? It's just about the "whether or not it can feel pain" argument?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to speak for most people, but as a vegan and a pro-choicer I feel directly related to the topic. For me, abortion is nothing about whether or not the fetus is alive and entirely about whether or not the woman has rights and control over her body. And in my case, I feel that when the rights of an existing person conflict with those of a potential person the existing person's rights ought to triumph.

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This is sort of a version of the Thomson argument. She would say (as would I) that its not so much a question of potential person versus actual person so much as it is actual person who is obligating verus actual person who is under no obligation.

[vhawk01]

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Wait, so for most people, abortion doesn't come down to whether or not the fetus is alive? It's just about the "whether or not it can feel pain" argument?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to speak for most people, but as a vegan and a pro-choicer I feel directly related to the topic. For me, abortion is nothing about whether or not the fetus is alive and entirely about whether or not the woman has rights and control over her body. And in my case, I feel that when the rights of an existing person conflict with those of a potential person the existing person's rights ought to triumph.

[/ QUOTE ]
Generally, this is how I feel. I would never interfere with a woman's right to get an abortion. I see this as pretty much the same way I don't think you (as a vegan) would interfere with my right to eat meat. It's about personal moral beliefs, that you live by or think about yourself, but don't impose on other people.

You're a vegan but you support a woman's right to choose, that's fine. Just like you support my right to eat meat. But do you have the same personal feelings or moral issues with someone who eats/produces/slaughters meat as you do with someone who gets/performs an abortion?

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I dont think thats what he means, but maybe. What I think he is saying is that, while he supports your freedom to eat meat, he only does that as a 'lesser of two evils' thing. You eating meat is still 'wrong,' its just not as wrong as him infringing on your rights. But abortion isn't wrong.

At least, thats how I would see it if I were a vegan.

[Vagos]

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I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there isn't anyone in the world who wouldn't agree that a fetus is alive. Of course its alive. I'll wait for you to clarify some terms before we continue this, as we often have semantical problems that stall out discussion.

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I agree that it is alive. I just always hear in abortion debates this whole thing about "when life begins." If something is alive, surely it's life has begun?