Did anyone notice this strategy? (kind of long)

[yimyammer]

While playing in the ME, I noticed that there were several Loose but good players who were looking for every opportunity to take flops, especially calling raises from tight players (like myself).

A guy I played with named Sasha (funny guy that talked a lot and had a weird wrist band looking thing and lots of odd jewelry, anyone know who he is?) was doing this quite often and probably played half of the hands in every round and would call raises of 3 to 5xBB if the raiser was a tight player.

One hand I had with him, I raised 3xBB with KK and he called on the button.

I had about 14K, blinds were 50/100, he had me covered.

The flop came A55. I bet half the pot and he called.

The turn came a duece and I checked and he bet about 1/3 to 1/2 the pot (I can't remember exactly) and I opted to fold.

I knew I was either well behind or being bluffed, but I guess I'm too weak tight to keep playing.

The table broke the next hand and he said I got incredibly lucky the ace came because he had quad 5's. I think there is a good chance he is telling the truth since the table was broke and we were no longer going to be playing together. (Sidebar: with all the talk about luck in the game of poker, I don't think we consider how lucky we get when we actually miss our hands or have scare cards that force us to lay down our hands like the example I gave above or how lucky we are when our AA runs into AK and we get paid off, this is a topic for another post, but an observation I made while playing the last few days)

Another example I encountered was early in the ME and a player who I pegged as a lag had raised yet another pot one off of the cutoff to 3xbb, the SB made it 9xbb, lag called. The flop came K x x with two hearts and the small blind bet about half the pot. The lag then raised him and the SB hesitated and folded. The lag turned over 9/7 offsuit for a naked bluff.

Anyway, this was a good example of the type of play these guys were making.

In all the talk about hand ranges, pot odds, fold equity, etc, I don't hear much talk about trying to attack tight players with this line. It may be risky, but sure seems like a good strategy since we know so many hands miss flops and having position on a tight player gives you lots of options even when you don't flop big.

I really liked Sasha's play and players that can pull this off. It sucks being against players like this, they force you to have monsters to continue or guess as to when their bluffing or have monsters themselves.

So how effective is this type of tact?

Is the way to counter this to turn really passive and check call all your hands? How do you best counter these types of players?

I sure came away feeling like a weak tight nit and I can't stand it! I want to be able to play like these guys, but it takes a lot of heart and confidence in your reading ability. Neither of which I presently have.

[Some Pig]

I am quoting this from a post made by ML4L over at the High Stakes Potlimit and NoLimit forum:

"A number of posters have touched on the fact that one of the most uncomfortable positions that you can be in is to be out of position with your hand defined. If you allow this to happen, your opponents will own you. Let's say you raise up front, and they know you have a big pair. Your opponents can then take advantage in one of two ways. One, if they know that you WILL NOT back an overpair with your stack, they can call with any two cards on the button, call your bet on the flop, bet/raise the turn and represent something better than an overpair, and steal the pot every time. Alternatively, if you WILL back an overpair with your stack, then they have the implied odds to play a TON of hands against your raise, because they know they can get paid off."

[Gotmilk]

[ QUOTE ]
While playing in the ME, I noticed that there were several Loose but good players who were looking for every opportunity to take flops, especially calling raises from tight players (like myself).

A guy I played with named Sasha (funny guy that talked a lot and had a weird wrist band looking thing and lots of odd jewelry, anyone know who he is?) was doing this quite often and probably played half of the hands in every round and would call raises of 3 to 5xBB if the raiser was a tight player.

One hand I had with him, I raised 3xBB with KK and he called on the button.

I had about 14K, blinds were 50/100, he had me covered.

The flop came A55. I bet half the pot and he called.

The turn came a duece and I checked and he bet about 1/3 to 1/2 the pot (I can't remember exactly) and I opted to fold.

I knew I was either well behind or being bluffed, but I guess I'm too weak tight to keep playing.

The table broke the next hand and he said I got incredibly lucky the ace came because he had quad 5's. I think there is a good chance he is telling the truth since the table was broke and we were no longer going to be playing together. (Sidebar: with all the talk about luck in the game of poker, I don't think we consider how lucky we get when we actually miss our hands or have scare cards that force us to lay down our hands like the example I gave above or how lucky we are when our AA runs into AK and we get paid off, this is a topic for another post, but an observation I made while playing the last few days)

Another example I encountered was early in the ME and a player who I pegged as a lag had raised yet another pot one off of the cutoff to 3xbb, the SB made it 9xbb, lag called. The flop came K x x with two hearts and the small blind bet about half the pot. The lag then raised him and the SB hesitated and folded. The lag turned over 9/7 offsuit for a naked bluff.

Anyway, this was a good example of the type of play these guys were making.

In all the talk about hand ranges, pot odds, fold equity, etc, I don't hear much talk about trying to attack tight players with this line. It may be risky, but sure seems like a good strategy since we know so many hands miss flops and having position on a tight player gives you lots of options even when you don't flop big.

I really liked Sasha's play and players that can pull this off. It sucks being against players like this, they force you to have monsters to continue or guess as to when their bluffing or have monsters themselves.

So how effective is this type of tact?

Is the way to counter this to turn really passive and check call all your hands? How do you best counter these types of players?

I sure came away feeling like a weak tight nit and I can't stand it! I want to be able to play like these guys, but it takes a lot of heart and confidence in your reading ability. Neither of which I presently have.

[/ QUOTE ]


bump this thread after the WSOP. I would like to talk about it, but not while the tournament is still going and I might have to play with people where I talk about specific hands.

[betgo]

Throw in some early position raises with low and medium cards, pps and suited connectors/gappers. It makes you much harder to read.

[beeyjay]

[ QUOTE ]

In all the talk about hand ranges, pot odds, fold equity, etc, I don't hear much talk about trying to attack tight players with this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think all good players focus on adjusting to the play of their opponents and one obvious way to do this is to steal pots from somebody who is scared. it sounds as though these players were probably good and well past the level of thinking of "i have xx in my hand so i do this."

[yimyammer]

[ QUOTE ]
I am quoting this from a post made by ML4L over at the High Stakes Potlimit and NoLimit forum:

"A number of posters have touched on the fact that one of the most uncomfortable positions that you can be in is to be out of position with your hand defined. If you allow this to happen, your opponents will own you. Let's say you raise up front, and they know you have a big pair. Your opponents can then take advantage in one of two ways. One, if they know that you WILL NOT back an overpair with your stack, they can call with any two cards on the button, call your bet on the flop, bet/raise the turn and represent something better than an overpair, and steal the pot every time. Alternatively, if you WILL back an overpair with your stack, then they have the implied odds to play a TON of hands against your raise, because they know they can get paid off."

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, thats good, they really have you boxed in. I hate being a tite nit. I have a LOT to learn!!

At least I recognize whats going on, I suppose that the first step...

[Augie]

Ah yes, the power of position.

I'm not an expert, but I have played my fair share against those types of tough players, so take my advice for what it's worth. Talk/post with some better players to get proper advice.

I would probably make these adjustments:

1. Play tighter up front. I'm guessing a lot of WSOP ME players are doing this anyway, but I think it's important. Someone said to mix up your play a bit more, play some suited connectors, but I don't think this will help you against Sasha types. (Yes, it is important to mix up your play, but if your natural style is TAG, I don't think you want to try to learn how to play LAG OOP at the ME) The reason that mixing in some suited connectors will not help you as much, is that they will actually have an easier time picking up pots from you when you are OOP, since you will miss the flop even more often than when you have good cards.

2. Check lots of flops to Sasha-types, whether you hit or miss. Pick off their bluffs, by check/calling with very good hands. Check/raise with hands you are fairly sure are best, but vulnerable to draws.

This will help you to control the pot size better as well. I know, how are you controlling pot size by letting him do the betting?

Two things - these guys may be trying to use their position to outplay you, but you are probably going to see lots of 1/2 to 2/3 pot bets, not overbets. They know you are tight, and that you raised preflop, and now you are check/calling? Warning lights will be going off for these guys. They too will want a smaller pot, and the ability to get away from their hand. Also, you can choose to check/raise at anytime, and put them to the test (your image will work for you here).

3. Play like they do when you have position. It's much easier to get their chips when they are OOP. Take flops with the other tighties (like Sasha was doing, and play aggressively if you sense weakness). But against the Sasha-types, reraise them more preflop than you normally would. Sasha-types are often very good players, and very good players will begin to respect you if you do this.

If they respect you, you will not get played with as much. And besides, by playing tight, and passive (but passive like a tiger lying in the grass for his next meal) OOP they will not have occasion to pick on you so much.

Once you have their respect, they will probably readjust, and then you will have to as well. And it never ends.

When you have an established image of being tight up front, and are now not getting action, and most importantly, are now not getting played around with too often, then maybe you can add in some suited connectors OOP.

Hope this helps some. Remember though, I'm no expert.

Be good,

Augie

[Moose747]

This is a fairly common strategy in cash games. It only works when stacks are quite deep, so it's a strategy that most internet tournament players aren't familiar with. Deep stack play is a different animal than shallow stacks, where the 2nd or 3rd raise might put you all in.

Succesful deep stack play involves very good post-flop play, which generally involves making good reads of opponents' ranges. This requires a lot of practice, but in the meantime I can suggest some adjustments you may want to make:

1) If you think you can isolate a player you know will call with any 2 , raise more frequently. Hands like AT are a solid favorite over the trash that's going to call you, so build up a pot when you have an advantage. Of course, be willing to fold to a reraise.
2) If you don't see yourself as a great post-flop player, raise more preflop. When you're sitting with 25 BBs, it's a pretty big mistake to raise 7xBB. When you're sitting with 200 BBs, it's not a big mistake, and may be correct if villains are still going to call with trash. Usually, increasing the size of you bet narrows villains' range, making it easier to play post-flop.
3) Play position. Fold AJ-AQo utg, but call a reasonable raise or open raise yourself with 54s from late position. You'll find yourself in much better spots postflop.
4) Don't c-bet when you miss. Check-call or check-fold generally work better. The c-bet is still a fairly small bet, so this type of villain may well be calling with any piece of the flop
5) Don't stop value-betting. The key to getting over weak-tight issues is not to become a passive player. Bet when you hit the flop. Do so whenever you think you're ahead of villain's calling range; if villain calls with anything, value-bet bottom pair.
6) Be very wary of the big bet. Good short-stack/tourny players tend to understand well how to play preflop and on the flop, but because of stack sizes, you rarely see any more action than an all-in on the turn or river. With deep stacks, you see situations where money goes in preflop and on the flop, and then a relatively huge amount goes in on the turn or river--either via overbet or on a 2nd or 3rd raise. Learning to play in these spots is the only way to become successful at deep-stack poker, since these decisions are so much more important than deciding when to raise preflop.

[yimyammer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While playing in the ME, I noticed that there were several Loose but good players who were looking for every opportunity to take flops, especially calling raises from tight players (like myself).

A guy I played with named Sasha (funny guy that talked a lot and had a weird wrist band looking thing and lots of odd jewelry, anyone know who he is?) was doing this quite often and probably played half of the hands in every round and would call raises of 3 to 5xBB if the raiser was a tight player.

One hand I had with him, I raised 3xBB with KK and he called on the button.

I had about 14K, blinds were 50/100, he had me covered.

The flop came A55. I bet half the pot and he called.

The turn came a duece and I checked and he bet about 1/3 to 1/2 the pot (I can't remember exactly) and I opted to fold.

I knew I was either well behind or being bluffed, but I guess I'm too weak tight to keep playing.

The table broke the next hand and he said I got incredibly lucky the ace came because he had quad 5's. I think there is a good chance he is telling the truth since the table was broke and we were no longer going to be playing together. (Sidebar: with all the talk about luck in the game of poker, I don't think we consider how lucky we get when we actually miss our hands or have scare cards that force us to lay down our hands like the example I gave above or how lucky we are when our AA runs into AK and we get paid off, this is a topic for another post, but an observation I made while playing the last few days)

Another example I encountered was early in the ME and a player who I pegged as a lag had raised yet another pot one off of the cutoff to 3xbb, the SB made it 9xbb, lag called. The flop came K x x with two hearts and the small blind bet about half the pot. The lag then raised him and the SB hesitated and folded. The lag turned over 9/7 offsuit for a naked bluff.

Anyway, this was a good example of the type of play these guys were making.

In all the talk about hand ranges, pot odds, fold equity, etc, I don't hear much talk about trying to attack tight players with this line. It may be risky, but sure seems like a good strategy since we know so many hands miss flops and having position on a tight player gives you lots of options even when you don't flop big.

I really liked Sasha's play and players that can pull this off. It sucks being against players like this, they force you to have monsters to continue or guess as to when their bluffing or have monsters themselves.

So how effective is this type of tact?

Is the way to counter this to turn really passive and check call all your hands? How do you best counter these types of players?

I sure came away feeling like a weak tight nit and I can't stand it! I want to be able to play like these guys, but it takes a lot of heart and confidence in your reading ability. Neither of which I presently have.

[/ QUOTE ]


bump this thread after the WSOP. I would like to talk about it, but not while the tournament is still going and I might have to play with people where I talk about specific hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

one year late bump, what say you Gotmilk?

[aholthaus33]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While playing in the ME, I noticed that there were several Loose but good players who were looking for every opportunity to take flops, especially calling raises from tight players (like myself).

A guy I played with named Sasha (funny guy that talked a lot and had a weird wrist band looking thing and lots of odd jewelry, anyone know who he is?) was doing this quite often and probably played half of the hands in every round and would call raises of 3 to 5xBB if the raiser was a tight player.

One hand I had with him, I raised 3xBB with KK and he called on the button.

I had about 14K, blinds were 50/100, he had me covered.

The flop came A55. I bet half the pot and he called.

The turn came a duece and I checked and he bet about 1/3 to 1/2 the pot (I can't remember exactly) and I opted to fold.

I knew I was either well behind or being bluffed, but I guess I'm too weak tight to keep playing.

The table broke the next hand and he said I got incredibly lucky the ace came because he had quad 5's. I think there is a good chance he is telling the truth since the table was broke and we were no longer going to be playing together. (Sidebar: with all the talk about luck in the game of poker, I don't think we consider how lucky we get when we actually miss our hands or have scare cards that force us to lay down our hands like the example I gave above or how lucky we are when our AA runs into AK and we get paid off, this is a topic for another post, but an observation I made while playing the last few days)

Another example I encountered was early in the ME and a player who I pegged as a lag had raised yet another pot one off of the cutoff to 3xbb, the SB made it 9xbb, lag called. The flop came K x x with two hearts and the small blind bet about half the pot. The lag then raised him and the SB hesitated and folded. The lag turned over 9/7 offsuit for a naked bluff.

Anyway, this was a good example of the type of play these guys were making.

In all the talk about hand ranges, pot odds, fold equity, etc, I don't hear much talk about trying to attack tight players with this line. It may be risky, but sure seems like a good strategy since we know so many hands miss flops and having position on a tight player gives you lots of options even when you don't flop big.

I really liked Sasha's play and players that can pull this off. It sucks being against players like this, they force you to have monsters to continue or guess as to when their bluffing or have monsters themselves.

So how effective is this type of tact?

Is the way to counter this to turn really passive and check call all your hands? How do you best counter these types of players?

I sure came away feeling like a weak tight nit and I can't stand it! I want to be able to play like these guys, but it takes a lot of heart and confidence in your reading ability. Neither of which I presently have.

[/ QUOTE ]


bump this thread after the WSOP. I would like to talk about it, but not while the tournament is still going and I might have to play with people where I talk about specific hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

one year late bump, what say you Gotmilk?

[/ QUOTE ]

And it better be good after a year! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]