Head's Up. Call this river???

[Irish Mafia]

Villain is "JBombs" - never played him before, and I don't think i've ever even seen him before (translation - not a 5-10 regular). After about 165 hands (and I don't play much HU, so I can't make much of HU stats - whats "good" whats "bad"?) he is running at about 40/29/1.7. Fwiw he has hardly been 3-betting preflop. Additionally, up to this point I have not SEEN him get out out line w/ big bluffs, but I suspect that he has bluffed me out of a few rivers. My line of thinking at the time he called the turn was that "he's drawing" (J-10 perhaps?). I really suspected that an overpair would've raised me somewhere before the river (I mean overpairs are that much more valuable HU, and I doubt he would've been playing "pot control" w/ say jacks, and them just bombed away the river). I also thought that a set would've tried to sweeten the pot prior to the river. But who knows - I was lost, and thats why I am posting!

Full Tilt Poker - No Limit Hold'em Cash Game - $5/$10 Blinds - 2 Players - (LegoPoker HH Converter)

DazednConfused (BB): $1,751.25
SB: $1,441.00

Preflop: DazednConfused is dealt Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">SB raises to $30.00</font>, DazednConfused calls $20.00

Flop: ($60) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
DazednConfused checks, <font color="red">SB bets $45.00</font>, <font color="red">DazednConfused raises to $150.00</font>, SB calls $105.00

Turn: ($360) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
<font color="red">DazednConfused bets $255.00</font>, SB calls $255.00

River: ($870) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
DazednConfused checks, <font color="red">SB bets $700.00</font>, [i]DazednConfused ???

[KRANTZ]

what made you c/r the flop?

[wtf5]

unfortuantely with HUs, every hand is kind of situational. There are no real set in stone rules.

The part of the hand that u need to analyse is the flop. When he calls ur CR, u need to think what sort of hands is he doing this with. A Strong player almost certainly have you beat on the flop with hands like a set as they expect you to lead the turn. Weaker plays can have everything from a draw to A,8.

If you think hes a good player than i'd definitely fold the river. If you think hes not that good a player than he could easily have a missed draw and think 'omg he checked, maybe i can get him to fold a 9 or 8.'

[Irish Mafia]

"what made you c/r the flop"

For value??? I must admit that I don't have much HU experience (though there seems to be a TON of value in it) - and I'm still very much learning. I guess my thinking is, "I think I have the best hand" coupled with "there are lots of turn cards that I don't want to see."

I would never check-raise this hand at a 6-max table - but didn't think it was inappropriate for HU. Is this very wrong Krantz?

I appreciate comments on all streets!

[wtf5]

[ QUOTE ]
what made you c/r the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

surely you have to mix up your game every now and again as this isnt standard.

[KRANTZ]

i know why i would c/r Q9. i would against some players and i wouldn't against others. i just want to know why OP did.

let's say you had a set in a prior hand, c/red, and you saw him pay you off with mid pair. or you saw him float you and you were able to build a giant pot against a float/bluff. that's a great reason to c/r TP (or it might not be, if he only expects you now to show up with the nuts). see what i'm getting at? if you have no reason to believe he will pay you off with worse or float you, then lead or check and call. or start c/ring more frequently so he starts paying you off with worse/floating you. otherwise, you're in a very awkward and huge pot and out of position with no clear conception of where you stand.

without knowing much about that kind of history/previous hands, it's tough to figure out what kind of range he's on by the river. i don't necessarily think he will raise an overpair before the river.

[Irish Mafia]

[ QUOTE ]
unfortuantely with HUs, every hand is kind of situational. There are no real set in stone rules.

The part of the hand that u need to analyse is the flop. When he calls ur CR, u need to think what sort of hands is he doing this with. A Strong player almost certainly have you beat on the flop with hands like a set as they expect you to lead the turn. Weaker plays can have everything from a draw to A,8.

If you think hes a good player than i'd definitely fold the river. If you think hes not that good a player than he could easily have a missed draw and think 'omg he checked, maybe i can get him to fold a 9 or 8.'

[/ QUOTE ]

Well to be honest he seemed like a very weak player. I mean he bought in for 800, and had gotten up to 1400 mostly thru sheer luck. Both the timing (very quickly) and size (almost full pot) seemed to signal to me "he's bluffing." Usually people who have a monster (set) would take a few moments to process "how big of a bet will he call?". Also, by checking the river I am signaling weakness (usually), which he must pick up on, and would probably want to bet LESS (say half the pot??) w/ a set to ensure his huge hand gets full value, no?

I don't know, his actions really just threw me off.

[KRANTZ]

if he bet quickly on that river i'd be way more inclined to call

[RiverHebrew2]

The ONLY hand I can put him on is 56 for flopping the gutshot and turning double gutshot...? But I still call riv

[Irish Mafia]

[ QUOTE ]
i know why i would c/r Q9. i would against some players and i wouldn't against others. i just want to know why OP did.

let's say you had a set in a prior hand, c/red, and you saw him pay you off with mid pair. or you saw him float you and you were able to build a giant pot against a float/bluff. that's a great reason to c/r TP (or it might not be, if he only expects you now to show up with the nuts). see what i'm getting at? if you have no reason to believe he will pay you off with worse or float you, then lead or check and call. or start c/ring more frequently so he starts paying you off with worse/floating you. otherwise, you're in a very awkward and huge pot and out of position with no clear conception of where you stand.

without knowing much about that kind of history/previous hands, it's tough to figure out what kind of range he's on by the river. i don't necessarily think he will raise an overpair before the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a great post Krantz, and very insightful - thank you. To be honest, he did NOT seem like the person who loved to float/run big bluffs (and I can see what that would make this c/r faulty). That being said, he WAS the type of person who would call ("just to see one more card" w/ bottom pair "in case he's bluffing", or ANY draw - including a gut shot) - and THAT is where I thought I had value in top pair. That villain would call a check-raise w/ J-7 or K-2 (bottom pair).