Do I still have MUBS? (Monsters under the bed syndrome)

theb00radley · #1 06-25-2007, 02:55 PM

I posted to 2+2 a while back asking for feedback about some of my stats, and one of the main criticisms was that I don't see enough showdowns. My WTSD% was about 30%, and as a result of looking for more opportunites to see showdowns it's now up to about 31.5%, but still nowhere near the 35% or more I was told it should be.

I've been looking through my Poker Tracker database and to be honest am struggling to find where I should be calling down more.

Here are a few possible hands which I would appreciate any feedback on.

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.5SB, 3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, BB calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9.25BB, 3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB folds, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: 12.25BB

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 5.25BB

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: 5.25BB

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2.5BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: 6.5BB

yourface · #2 06-25-2007, 03:06 PM

haha I remember your BBV post. good to see you got back on the horse

if you post 1 hand at a time you'll get much better discussion. peoples eyes tend to glaze over when they see 3+ hands in a post

that being said,

hand 1: FOR GODS SAKE RAISE PREFLOP you have a very good hand. river seems ok though you can probably fold to the donk bet. reads help.

hand 2: just call down you are way ahead or way behind. you don't want to let him get away from his weak hands or lose extra bets from his strong hands

hand 3: checkraise the flop. people generally continuation bet 100% of the time. you are ahead most of the time and you want that extra bet. as played call the turn raise you have a lot of outs to improve and you're getting the right price from the pot.

hand 4: lead the flop or checkraise the flop. I usually lead with this board texture. as played the fold is probably fine

kaby · #3 06-25-2007, 03:09 PM

I am never ever folding hand 4 vs an unknown CO openlimper, he has three pair or some other stupid hand you beat >20% of the time imho

Oink · #4 06-25-2007, 03:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I posted to 2+2 a while back asking for feedback about some of my stats, and one of the main criticisms was that I don't see enough showdowns. My WTSD% was about 30%, and as a result of looking for more opportunites to see showdowns it's now up to about 31.5%, but still nowhere near the 35% or more I was told it should be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you play at crypto (and why would you want to do that?) you prolly wont have a high wtsd as the games there are ubertight. Remember that your wtsd is a result of how much you call down AND how much you GET called down.

[ QUOTE ]

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero calls, 2 folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB checks.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.5SB, 3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, Button calls, BB calls.

River: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (9.25BB, 3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls, Button raises, BB folds, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to Button.

Results:
Final pot: 12.25BB

[/ QUOTE ]

That one is fine IMO
EDIT: I missed the open limp. What the hell are you thinking? Raise preflop because you have a good hand and most of the value you get from playing that hand comes from taking down the pot early. You want to win the blinds right there!

[ QUOTE ]

Absolute Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, BB calls.

Flop: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5.25BB, 2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to BB.

Results:
Final pot: 5.25BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you raising the flop? What worse hands calls you down and what better hand folds? Get to SD and let him keep bluffing. That flop raise is awful!

[ QUOTE ]

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (4.5SB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3.25BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: 5.25BB

[/ QUOTE ]
Why are you donking the flop? Unless you have a read that villain will not c-bet (which I doubt) then you should just go ahead and c/r. Unless you were looking to bet/3-bet of course.

I dunno about the turn fold. I would rarely do it but if you have a read that he is tight postflop its fine. If he is a LAG then its pretty bad since you have a decent redraw.

[ QUOTE ]

Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, Hero calls, BB checks.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3SB, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, CO bets, Hero calls, BB folds.

Turn: 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2.5BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls.

River: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.5BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, CO raises, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: 6.5BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a read its impossible to give any feedback on that one. I would b/f a loose passive. c/c a bad aggro and b/c a LAG.

Again. Why the hell are you donking the turn? I dont understand your line at all. You are scared of c/r'ing?
If you want to bet out the turn you should at least c/r the flop.

secretprankster · #5 06-25-2007, 03:14 PM

Hand 1 is fine.

Hand 2 is possibly the worst flop raise in history, lol. Calling the flop 3-bet is not good either, unless you're planning on calling down (which would require a read).

Hand 3 is a flop checkraise. As played, call turn and fold river usually. But the turn bet isn't great if you think about what hands he can have.

Hand 4 needs more action somehow.

context · #6 06-26-2007, 05:48 AM

Hand 1. Raise.

Hand 2. It's been said, what can a raise possibly achieve here?

Hand 3. I take it you were trying tyo confuse your oponent? It confuses me. Unless you're mixing up your play against a decent oponent with history, you should be CR that flop every single time! I'm not sure I can fold that turn, you have a lot of outs and it's a great turn card to semi-bluff for him.

Hand 4. Stop being greedy. The flop is very coordinated. If BB is on a draw he'll probably call two, if he has nothing he'll probably fold. Raise. I probably c/c the river, you need reads to play any other way I think. No sane player should be calling with a worse hand on that board.

theb00radley · #7 06-26-2007, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2. It's been said, what can a raise possibly achieve here?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

My thinking on hand 2 was to raise for information, which I take it is not a good play in limit. I was thinking that my opponents response to my raise made it likely but not certain they had an ace or queen. Their action on the turn made it seem much more certain and I was thinking I had saved myself 2 big bets.

I find it hard to see right now with my inexperience, but by calling down from the flop I assume you would win often enough to make it more +EV than playing it the way I did.

theb00radley · #8 06-26-2007, 02:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I am never ever folding hand 4 vs an unknown CO openlimper, he has three pair or some other stupid hand you beat >20% of the time imho

[/ QUOTE ]

This is another situation where I need to get a feel for how often I am winning here so I can make a +EV decision.

You estimate >20% of the time winning! Therefore it would cost me about 4BB's to win 6.5BB's in the long run making that call there. Looks good to me.