NL Completing from the small blind with any two cards

[Cloodie]

I've often completed the small blind when there have been a couple of limpers as I'm 'getting decent odds'. Lately I've been questioning this though.

My question are

1) Is this a leak in my game? Over 12,00 hands my losses from the small blind a 0.17 BB (according to poker tracker)

2) Is there a point where it becomes mathematically correct to complete the small blind with any two cards (eg 96o) becasue of the odds you are being offered?

[PantsOnFire]

It depends. I will assume for the moment we are talking about deep stack cash or tourney NL:

1. Does the BB raise a lot?

2. Are there lots of weak/tight players?

3. Are there lots of loose players that will give you good implied odds?

4. How good are you at post-flop play?

5. How good are you at playing out of position?

I went through what you are going through a while ago and I ended up deciding to play less hands out of the SB. If I wouildn't limp in CO or button, I won't limp in SB. The main consideration for me was poor position.

In some games however, if some of the above conditions are met, I will add unsuited connectors and any two paint to my SB hands.

I'm not much of a limit player so there are probably other considerations for that game.

[lucksack]

1) Is this a leak in my game? Over 12,00 hands my losses from the small blind a 0.17 BB (according to poker tracker)

Yes.

2) Is there a point where it becomes mathematically correct to complete the small blind with any two cards (eg 96o) becasue of the odds you are being offered?

No.

[WordWhiz]

This is not a leak if the players are bad enough and deep enough. You can't really quantify this mathematically like you might be able to in limit. E.g., if one of the limpers is 1000BB deep and will always go broke with top pair, no matter what, it is correct to see as many flops as you can to try to stack him. 1/2 of a BB is nothing to pay for such an opportunity. Obviously this is an extreme case, but you get the idea.

[ricksonbyarmbar]

one thing you may want to considering is looking for oppertunities to raise and take the pot right then and there. this is something I have done from time to time and I find it works well. I usally like to do this with a small pair or suited connector, because its soo taboo to raise out of the SB with "multi-way hands" ppl generally give u credit for something big. You have to be prepared to fire a C-bet though and follow through with this play, if it doesnt work in getting you the pot immiediatley.

[Cloodie]

I've raised occasionally from the sb with air after a couple of players have limped in and I think this is probably a +EV move for me. Still think I'm completing far too much though from the SB so I'll have to change that part of my game.

[d3gener4te]

complete is+ev IMO

[Gigglegirl]

Most winning players post a loss from the SB but 0.17 certainly seems on the high side.
OP, what's your Vpip from the SB? If it's 50 or something then probably you just need to tighten up.
But if its 25, then maybe its an indication you need to improve playing OOP post flop.
With such a high loss rate, I'd say it's probably a combination of both?
What's your fold to steal %? You might be calling too many raises?
Also is this 6Max or Full Ring? I'd probably complete lighter in 6Max as Villains holdings are likely slightly weaker.
As for the 96o question, just look at your PT stats for the hand when you had it in the SB.
Red, ain't it?

Study your PT stats for the hands you've played in the SB.
Stop playing the ones that are big losers, look at the marginal ones and see if you can play them better and play your winning ones hard.
Just my 2 cents

Good luck.

[El_Hombre_Grande]

I don't think this is actually a math question. Its a table question.

I think completing your small blind with any two is + EV if one of the players in the hand is capable of losing his whole large stack to you on that occasion that you flop a monster and he flops top pair. Otherwise, I think a weak hand out of position in NL is virtually worthless.

[Gonso]

[ QUOTE ]
+ EV if one of the players in the hand is capable of losing his whole large stack to you on that occasion that you flop a monster

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and also if the effective stack sizes are fairly deep. Speculative hands are very easy to get away from OOP versus multiple opponents if you miss the flop.

The "getting decent odds" bit leads a few people astray, and I think this was in part to Harrington under-explaining this a little in his books. Even getting something like 5-to-1, it's typically not profitable to complete the SB with trash most of the time. I mean, you're out of position, and most of the time when you flop big your opponents won't, and you get no action.

Now, as mentioned, you might be up against some really bad low limit players that can't get away from hands. THere's a good chance that's the case if you see a lot of open-limping with several callers (which are getting you crazy odds to complete the SB in the first place). In those cases, you can often loosen up your positional requirements and sacrifice some preflop equity to play for stacks.